Outlook Archives
Decisive loss: Gen Niazi (right) capitulates after the 1971 war
opinion
To Understand Pakistan, 1947 Is The Wrong Lens
The hurt that moves Pakistan is from a wound more recent—1971
On a recent trip to India, I was moved by the genuine concern people have about Pakistan. As a Pakistani living in the United States, I am subjected daily to serious exasperation, courtesy the American media. Americans do not understand Pakistan because they do not care. And there is no real knowledge without caring. Indians certainly do care. Pakistan has been on the Indian mind since the moment of their co-creation. India and Pakistan are like two ends of a thread tied in a fantastic Gordian knot; their attachment magically survives their severance. And how the love grows! The recent Jaswant Singh controversy over Jinnah only partially unveiled how Pakistan is critical to the ideological coherence of Indian nationalism in both its secular and Hindutva varieties. But behind this veil, Pakistan has always been internal to Indian politics. It should come as no surprise then that establishment Indians (bureaucratic and political elites, intellectuals, media types, and the chattering classes) are well-versed in the nuances of Pakistani society. Indians understand Pakistan like no one else does, or can.

Still, there is this curious blind spot: no one in India appears to remember 1971. Worse, no one seems to think it relevant. For all their sophistication, Indian elites continue to understand Pakistan primarily with reference to the events of 1947. Anything else is incidental, not essential. The established Indian paradigms for explaining Pakistan, its actions and its institutions, its state and society, have not undergone any significant shift since the Partition. The tropes remain the same: religion and elite manipulation explain everything. It is as if the pre-Partition politics of the Muslim League continues to be the politics of Pakistan—with slight non-essential variations. More than 60 years on, the factors may be different but little else has changed.

This view is deeply flawed. It reflects a serious confusion about the founding event of contemporary Pakistani society. The Partition has a mesmerising quality that blinds the mind, a kind of notional heft that far outweighs its real significance to modern South Asian politics. The concerns of the state of Pakistan, the anxieties of its society, and the analytic frames of its intellectual and media elites have as their primary reference not 1947 but the traumatic vivisection of the country in 1971. Indians have naturally focused on their own vivisection, their own dismemberment; but for Pakistan, they have focused on the wrong date. This mix-up has important consequences.

 
 
Oddly, the Indian elite seem to have a blind spot for the dismemberment india subjected Pakistan to in 1971. their focus never seems to shift from the partition.
 
 
First, Indians tend not to remember 1971 as a Pakistani civil war, but rather as India’s “good” war. It is remembered as an intervention by India to prevent the genocide of Bengalis by Pakistanis. The fact that the Bengalis themselves were also Pakistanis has been effaced from the collective memory of Indian elites. This makes 1971 merely another Kargil, or Kashmir, Afghanistan or Mumbai—an instance of Pakistan meddling in other people’s affairs, and of the Pakistani military’s adventurism in the region. This is why mention of Balochistan at Sharm el-Sheikh created such a stir in India. It was literally incomprehensible to Indians that Pakistan could accuse India of meddling in its internal affairs. Surely, this is the pot calling the kettle black. But what the Indian mind perceives as Pakistan’s ongoing divorce from reality is in fact Pakistan’s most fundamental political reality. The Pakistani establishment has internalised the memory of 1971. In all things, and at all times, it must account for India. Dismemberment has the requisite effect of focusing the mind on existential matters. Nothing can be taken for granted.

Second, the Indian establishment routinely misconstrues as ideological schizophrenia the Pakistani intellectual classes’ complicated responses to India. The nuances of the Pakistani experience of India are the very picture of incoherence to them. Worse, Pakistanis often frustrate the project of creating a common South Asian sensibility to bridge the political gaps between the two communities.

But again, no one in India accounts for 1971 when making such grand universalising (and, if I may add, genuinely noble) plans for the future of the region. Pakistani intellectual elites share with their Indian counterparts the normative horror of what the West Pakistani military did in the East. How can anyone in their right mind not deem such behaviour beyond the pale? But horror does not preclude abiding distaste for the Indian state’s wilful opportunism in breaking Pakistan apart. It is for this reason that while the intellectual classes in Pakistan, especially the English language press and prominent university scholars, have almost always condemned their state’s involvement in terrorist activity inside India proper, they have remained largely quiet concerning Kashmir. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Kashmir does not seem so different to them than East Pakistan.

It is for this same reason that there was no great outcry about the isi’s supposed involvement in the bombing of the Indian embassy in Kabul. The general sense among the educated elites was that India deserved it for trying to “encircle” Pakistan through Afghanistan. Indians process this either as paranoia or as a visceral hatred of India that blinds Pakistanis to facts. Perhaps there is some of this too. But it bears appreciating that Pakistan is a post-civil war society. Fear and anxiety concerning India’s intentions in the region are hardly limited to the so-called ‘establishment’ in Pakistan. It is a general fear, a well-dispersed fear, a social fear. And a relatively coherent fear at that.

 
 
If the vantage point is 1971, it will allow Pakistan to be seen as a state that’s reacting to repeated defeats inflicted upon its forces by a larger neighbour.
 
 
This leads to the third, and perhaps the most important point. The Indian establishment does not see Pakistan as a ‘normal’ society. The substance of this abnormalcy is religion, which is also the irreducible difference between the two societies. It is the original sin and a foundational incoherence that is ultimately inescapable. And it has tremendous explanatory power. It explains both the ideological nature of the Pakistani state’s hatred of India and, simultaneously, the state’s manipulation of the zealous masses for its own ends. That these two explanations do not hold together coherently is besides the point to most Indians. This is an old story and is as such sensible. In the Indian imagination, Pakistan is endlessly regurgitating the politics of Jinnah and the erstwhile Indian Muslim League. While Indian politics moves on, Pakistan’s holds eerily still. I am certainly not one to deny that there are some obvious asymmetries between India and Pakistan. The nature of the relationship between religion and politics is certainly one of them. But it bears mentioning that perhaps the most relevant asymmetry concerns the repeated defeats suffered by the conventional Pakistani forces at the hands of their Indian counterparts. This asymmetry is neither that complicated nor particularly abnormal. It illuminates the actions of the Pakistani state as essentially strategic and only incidentally ideological. And in that sense, it allows an interpretation of Pakistan as a fairly pedestrian, even ‘normal’ post-conflict society in its relations with its much larger neighbour.

Ultimately, this is the real value of a renewed focus on 1971 rather than 1947. It normalises Pakistan. It allows for discussion of real differences between the two societies and the two states, rather than of reified stereotypes that have little political relevance any more. This is not to justify the actions of the Pakistani state, which are in many cases entirely unjustifiable on both moral and political grounds. It is merely to hope that a mutual comprehension of normalcy may lead to peace and progress. Certainly, no one will deny that there is value in that.


(The author is with the Religious Studies Department at Yale University. He is also a member of the MacMillan Initiative on Religion, Politics and Society at Yale and a doctoral fellow at the Centre for Global Islamic Studies at Lehigh University.)

 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Nov 12, 2009 08:20 PM
216
What else can one expect from a society living in a curiously delusional state of denial, gleefully mistaking it as ‘patriotism’ and ‘concern.’ It seems no amount of proof will ever be enough to dent Pakistanis’ resolve to defend the unsubstantiated, wild theories that they so dearly hold in their rapidly shrinking heads.

http://blog.dawn.com...ion-of-sleepwalkers/

-A Must Read from Dawn-
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Nov 11, 2009 10:23 AM
215
>How about a Han (Chinese) - Hindu alliance against >Islamists?

>Hindu-Han Bhai-Bhai !!!!

actually i am a fan of chinese culture. i love kung fu/wu-xia movies. likewise hongkong gangsterista. if chiang shiek had succeeded in consolidating his control over china then i would have been optimistic about hindi-chini bhai bhai. but with the communists, indians have already burnt their hands/fingers once overtly - also many times covertly (with china backing pak). and whatever problems china might have against radical islam, still radical islam is also an effective part of its strategy to contain its rivals. pakistan might be the mother which bore these jihadi groups - but china was undoubtedly their father which supported pakistan financially/strategically/militarily.
nandakumar
chennai, india
Nov 11, 2009 08:43 AM
214
Very well articulated. Assuming that this is true, that Pakistan's weird behaviour has roots in 1971, assuming that it is infact normal state/society if only we look at the right vantage point, the same logic of "normal" behaviour should apply to India as well post-47. The country mourned the loss of 20% of terrotory and people but moved on. It did not get into weird behaviour like Pakistan is doing now.

On the contrary, it is Pakistan that fired the first (joining western alliance, obviously to arm itself against India), second (Joining with China) and third(launching the '65 war ) shots. And, then the killings of Pakistan Bengalis by Pakistan Punjabis (Pls note the correction).

While the author tried hard to present a normal face of Pakistan, he must look deeper and see what other normal countries would have done in similar situations. What India did post 47? What Germany did post WWII? or even what UK did post Raj ? The contrast explains it all.

But, one must appreciate the spirit behind the article. We should not be demonizing each other because that affects our judgement. If the other side is only 25% crazy, just stick to it. Don't exaggarate it for what you gain in PR (If at all), more will be lost in mis-judged acts of commissions and omissions.
Srini Jasti
San Jose, USA
Nov 10, 2009 10:32 PM
213
NANDAKUMAR:

How about a Han (Chinese) - Hindu alliance against Islamists?

Hindu-Han Bhai-Bhai !!!!
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 10, 2009 09:08 PM
212
NANDAKUMAR:

How about a Han (Chinese) - Hindu alliance against Islamists?

Hindu-Han Bhai-Bhai !!!!
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 10, 2009 06:31 PM
211
>But horror does not preclude abiding distaste for the >Indian state’s wilful opportunism in breaking >Pakistan apart.

pakistan was not a country/state which existed for thousands of years that its citizens should be traumatized for it breaking apart just 20 years after its inception. and why did it break? due to the horrors and misdeed committed by the pak army against innocent bengali civilians. and india didnt fight the pak army alone - the mukti bahini was a substantial force in its own right. and after the split india didnt take over that territory - bangladesh became independent. if india didnt intervene, are we to think there would have been a peaceful reconciliation between the east and west? and where were these so called intellectuals when atrocities were committed on their eastern lands?
nandakumar
chennai, india
Nov 10, 2009 03:14 PM
210
Mr Khurram Hussain need not advise Indians on the lens appropriate to see Pakistan.We see without ambiguity a failed terrorist state inimical to India.No need to waste time and space on established realities.
Sudhir Sharma
Bangalore, India
Nov 07, 2009 11:36 PM
209
R.

There is no doubt that the Muslim community in the valid electoral test before Partition chose Pakistan overwhelmingly.

The Muslims in the Hindu areas (now India) actually were the main supporters of the Muslim League, long before the Punjabis joined in. Jinnah himself came from Bombay and Liaquat Ali Khan from Uttar Pradesh.

Of course, these Indian Muslims were foolish in their failure to see that Pakistan was going to be far from them. Their folly. It doesn't lesson their secessionist orientation.

They got a pretty good deal in India. They kept Sharia, for instance, and could condemn Hinduism at will. In Muslim countries breathing a word against Islam means death.

As for the Brahmins, at least they allow anyone to criticise Hindu doctrines. In Islam, not even Muslims are able to do that, except small self-appointed cliques. So Islam is MORE elitist by far than Hinduism.

Hence the irony of Muslims claiming to be on the side of supp[ressed peoples...They themselves allow equality to none !!!!!
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 07, 2009 04:15 PM
208
"From all accounts, "Love Jihad" is a despicable invention of sanghi hate promoters."
Anwaar

Wrong as usual first Christian Missionaries in Kerla raised the issue .Must spew hate for Sang Hindus.
happy ram ambalvi
Ambala Cantt, India
Nov 07, 2009 06:53 AM
207
Bazeed Mirza :

You have every right to be concerned about the condition of Indian Moslems ( not that much worse than that of Hindus really ).

But what do you have to say about the Kashmiri Moslems who abused their majority in the Kashmir Valley to carry out pogroms and ethnic cleansing of the Hindu Pandits as late as the '90s ?

Do you believe that the Kashmiri Moslems' demand for separation from India is legitimate ? When the city they have occupied has the sanskrit name of Srinagar the whole valley is littered with ruins of ancient Hindu temples the Islamic vandals have tried to deface and demoslish ?

Can you deny that Kashmir was once a Hindu / Buddhist land that was occupied by invasion ? If that invasion is now being used as a justification for a pure Moslem domain than aren't all protest about the Indian Army ridiculuous self - serving hypocrisy ?

Can the Moslems of Kashmir who want to benefit from invasion, occupation and genocide have any real claims to protection from human rights or democracy ? Is there any statute of limit for the genocides that their forefathers committed against Hindus ?

It was possible to create Pakistan only because of British treachery. The descendants of Moslem invaders of Kashmir may dream of their own land based on bogus logic and legitimacy and the threat of Jihadi violence sanctioned by their religion, but no further separation of once Hindu / Buddhist lands from India will be allowed.

Kashmir is an integral part of India. If the Moslems don't like let them leave and go back to the land of their forefathers.
Gau_Rav1
nowhereland, Japan
Nov 07, 2009 04:37 AM
206
R.

The continued sense of grievance by many Muslims in India is very exaggerated.

They should respect the general tolerance of Hindus.

Their grandfathers demanded Pakistan and it was conceded to them.

In most parts of India - except in places where thuggish Hindus behave intolerantly - it is possible for Muslims even to condemn Hinduism freely in the media.

No Muslim country would allow condemnations of Islam.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 07, 2009 03:20 AM
205
what ails the muslim community in india. why are their so few bright modern well dressed muslims,except in
films. even pakistani,s are not so conservatively
dressed in skull caps.........

shows how limited your interaction with people is,you either saw the actors on one end and the simple average man on the street,
are you assuming we dont know how to dress tastefully,i think we ought to meet some day,
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 07, 2009 03:15 AM
204
tariq ali the renowed leftist in immediate aftermath of mumbai terrorist attacks
Its hardly a secret that there has been much anger within the poorest sections of the Muslim community against the systematic discrimination and acts of violence carried out against them of which the 2002 anti-Muslim pogrom in shining Gujarat was only the most blatant and the most investigated episode, supported by the Chief Minister of the State and the local state apparatuses.

Add to this the continuing sore of Kashmir which has for decades been treated as a colony by Indian troops with random arrests, torture and rape of Kashmiris an everyday occurrence. Conditions have been much worse than in Tibet, but have aroused little sympathy in the West where the defense of human rights is heavily instrumentalised.

Indian intelligence outfits are well aware of all this and they should not encourage the fantasies of their political leaders. Its best to come out and accept that there are severe problems inside the country. A billion Indians: 80 percent Hindus and 14 percent Muslims. A very large minority that cannot be ethnically cleansed without provoking a wider conflict.

None of this justifies terrorism, but it should, at the very least, force India’s rulers to direct their gaze on their own country and the conditions that prevail. Economic disparities are profound. The absurd notion that the trickle-down effects of global capitalism would solve most problems can now be seen for what it always was: a fig leaf to conceal new modes of exploitation.

Tariq Ali’s....counterpunch magazine november 2008
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 07, 2009 03:12 AM
203
tariq ali the renowed leftist discusses mumbai
terror attacks
http://www.counterpunch.org/tariq11272008.html
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 07, 2009 02:29 AM
202
faruki

i dont know if it is possible to connect with m.j.akbar

i will try, and ask him to explain his very critical and insulting remarks.

muslim countries are in a mess. indian muslims i suppose are less violent then pakistani,s. however
they are at a dead end.

all that you do is to clean up after them, and wash their dirty nappies. imagine not one great leader since 1947.no great thinkers.

in this respect pakistan has some thinkers. i was
impressed seeing a prgramme on dawn tv.

retired air marshall asghar ali khan said that india
was not a threat to pakistan, and the establishment
was all screwed up.there was also a clever guy,
a pofessor from a university.in fact their programme was sober, quiet without the hysterical soundbytes
of indian tv.

what ails the muslim community in india. why are their so few bright modern well dressed muslims,except in
films. even pakistani,s are not so conservatively
dressed in skull caps.

do you wear one. i have seen some fancy ones in delhi.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 07, 2009 01:33 AM
201
Bazeed,

From all accounts, "Love Jihad" is a despicable invention of sanghi hate promoters.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 07, 2009 01:27 AM
200
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> not just m.j.akbar but lots of others say the same.

Not in the sense that a hate-pracharak like you would interpret. You don't know what they are saying and you don't know what I am saying. You just blindly beat the drum of "Muslims are bad! Muslims are bad! Muslims are bad!"
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 06, 2009 05:27 PM
199
guys just click on this link,a wonderful expose

http://www.flonnet.c...0091120262302500.htm
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 06, 2009 03:21 PM
198
"look at the israeli,s they made the desert bloom,"

Lalit ji

And our friends have made Pakistan an Oasis and grainery of pre-partition India a Red Blooded Desert where bombs,guns and Human Bombers are produced .

What 1947 or 1971 ? Let us talk 2009 as the Jehadi fires are blazing in India too now .
happy ram ambalvi
Ambala Cantt, India
Nov 06, 2009 03:14 PM
197
Are there only 2 lenses - 1947 or 1971? There could be many more lenses from history. And can any country really break another country - if the the people of that country themselves don't want it? Not many Indians interact with Bangladesh - either before or after its creation. So how could India influence it so much? There was no internet, media etc in those days to unleash propoganda - so how? Did Indira Gandhi pick up a knife and cut it up? Or is the real reason that the people in the East were culturally so different to the West, that they saw themselves as better off being a separate country?
Rajesh Chary
Mumbai, India
Nov 06, 2009 02:34 PM
196
faruki

i suggest that you write to m.j.akbar for a follow
up to his remark about the sick limb.

later on he told a gathering, with many young muslims,
that they should thank heavens that their ancestors
had stayed back in india.

reddy
............

i wanted to point out that one should be self reliant.

look at the israeli,s they made the desert bloom,
and hold 300 million arabs at bay, and after kicking them around several times in wars.

the muslims in india have just one great achievment.
their numbers have gone up 6 times in both pakistan and india since 1947, and you are one amongst them.
dog shit would be a polite word for you.

have a good day.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 06, 2009 02:16 PM
195
faruki

not just m.j.akbar but lots of others say the same,
and increaseingly these are pakistani journalists

however you do not look into the self created problems
of the muslim community. you blame the outsiders, and
especially the hindu right wing parties.

imagine minorities behaveing in such a manner in muslim
countries.

the congress and the upa govt has been very sympathatic
to the muslims and the aam admi, and obviously without
any great results. we have seen how muslims collect in the hundreds of thousands for some petty issue, eg
about the danish cartoonists, a visit by george bush,
the execution of sadaam hussain. at the same time they
refuse measures to help themselves in india and outside.

frankly, i dont feel obliged to help muslims,who shower
abuses on us hindus, and at the same time expect help.
even if they thanked us it would not make any difference. humans are a selfish lot. after all what
are rich muslims in india and in pakistan doing for their poor.most of the foreign aid is being siphoned off by the politicians and the army.

i am writeing a paper on afghanistan, and the conclusion is the usa and nato should withdraw from
this country. growing daffodils in the sahara would be
more sensible. there is a great devide between nonmuslims and the muslims.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 06, 2009 07:47 AM
194
The writer is a glib talker like Musharraf. Like Musharraf he is also a liar. The notion that Kashmir was comparable in their minds to Bangladesh and hence justified is just hogwash. Some differences between Bangladesh and Kashmir:

1) Pakistan airforce bombed Bangladesh. India has never bombed Jammu and Kashmir,

2) Estimates about the number of Bangladeshis that were killed through the unilateral and unprovoked attack by Pakistan airforce ranges from 300,000 to 1 million. This happened in a space of 2 months. Number of people that have died in Kashmir in 20 years 47000. This for the most part consists of security forces killed by terrorists and the terrorists killed by security forces as well - neither of whom would be dead if the terrorists were not pushed across the border.

3) The trigger for India's interference in their civil war was that 10 million refugees had poured into India (In Swat, with 20% of that number of refugees, in their own country, Pakistan goes around the world with a begging bowl to resettle its own citizens). It was economically impossible for India to be a silent spectator. The trigger for Kashmir? 1947 (not 1971). Please remember they had initiated 2 wars prior to 1971 (1948 and 1965) - so the notion that they justify interference in Kashmir because of that is outright mendacity.

4) Here is what happened:

After Zia had killed a popularly elected prime minister and failed to call for elections (which he had initially promised in 1977 , he needed justification for his continued existence and that justification was implementation of sharia. He introduced all kinds of ordinances (including blasphemy ordinance and the Hudood ordinance which discriminated against religious minorities and women respectively by design (not one of those occasional riots but discrimination coded into law).

As continuation of these policies, school textbooks were changed (and I am not talking about Madarsas here - but actual schools) to encourage jihad. http://www.jihadwatc...-jihad-and-hate.html This group was a good raw material for him to send to Russia to support a covert war throughout the 1980s against an occupying force i.e. USSR. He in turn got billions of dollars and free arms and ammunition. When USSR collapsed and US had no use for this army of jihadis, Pakistan decided on a policy of strategic depth (this is acknowledged in most Pak media now as a bad policy) of using these jihadis to gain influence in Jammu and Kasjmir and Afghanistan.

It was a slippery slope.
a) Teach that jihaad is good and that killing kaffirs is jihaad.

b) Initially definition of kaffir was non-Muslims (Russians, Hindus)

c) The definition of kaffirs then was expanded to Shias and Ahmedias ( who formed 15% of the Pakistani Muslim population. Still majority was unaffected

d) It was then expanded into those that did not follow sharia (resulting in targeting girls schools in Swat, traders who sold music cassettes and CDs in FATA, women who dared to leave the homes unescorted. All this was going on in FATA, NWFP etc. so mainstream Pakistanis did not feel the pain and continued to legitimise these Taliban (which literally simply means student). Imran Khan (the cricketer) is one such person.

e) Now the Taliban (mentored by Maulana Sufi Mohammed) has said that anyone supporting the Pakistani constitution (which is man made law) is a kaffir because he is ignoring sharia which is 'revealed by God'. In the month of October 2009 alonethere were 22 blasts including many suicide blasts in Raalpindi, Islamabad, Lahore and Peshawar where almost 300 people died.
GP65
Mumbai, India
Nov 06, 2009 05:48 AM
193
however they are not the only ones. maoists, dalits,
tribals are all makeing demands on society, and are
unable,unwilling to help themselves.......

society read baniyas,
the great baniya alternate india inc,which people like gayatri confuse with being the real india.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 06, 2009 04:49 AM
192
faruki

m.j.akbar called indian muslims a sick limb.

cowasjee said of pakistani,s " ghanni kharab jaat che"
i had to ask some gujus what this meant.

i will not repeat what dr wafa sultan has said about muslims.

i dont hate indian muslims. i think they are old fashioned and have closed minds. plus that they have
a narrow focus.. your own words.

however they are not the only ones. maoists, dalits,
tribals are all makeing demands on society, and are
unable,unwilling to help themselves.

however i think speculateing about india is a dreary excercise. too many people,too many nit wits, and
a cant do mentality.

in denmark i make my own food,cook for guests and do
some chores in the garden. i like it.

ask any middle class indian to do the same and they will be outraged. dismal.

have a good day.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 06, 2009 03:19 AM
191
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> your speech is free speech. your opponents speech is hate speech.

You have yourself explicitly said that you hate Islam and Muslims. Being so obsessed with Islam as to write 10 to 20 hate posts a day, every day, for over five years should clinch the issue.

>> all critics of islam use hate speech.

I am a critic myself, and so are M.J. Akbar, Ziauddin Sardar, Chandra Muzaffar and Syed Akbar Ali. None of them use hate speech.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 06, 2009 01:38 AM
190
. i dont have anything to say to you....

you mean lie again,good.it is a headache talking to obtuse people anyway.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 06, 2009 12:31 AM
189
faruki

your speech is free speech.

your opponents speech is hate speech.

cool is it not. all critics of islam use hate speech,
and should be killed, in accordance with the laws of
blasphemy. thats what voltaire said, ot at any rate
that is what you understood.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 06, 2009 12:23 AM
188
mirza

i have been through personality checks.

i came out with full marks.

you are the typical muslim nut who suggests shrinks for others when your entire community has gone insane. i am amazed at your cheek. if anything you are the one who should have a inferiority complex.

get lost. i dont have anything to say to you.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 05, 2009 11:22 PM
187
--mirza--"you seem to have very strong inferiority complexes dogging you which you are channelising wrongly."

Which also explains his/her unapologetic euro-centrism. She needs help more than anything else. Sex-change operations trigger unhinged, hormonal responses.
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 05, 2009 11:12 PM
186
gayatri/lalit
this kind of action and reaction will keep going on,......

j.krishnamurti once said thoughts are products of illusions and illusions are basically false,
i seriously think you should go for counselling, people in home didnt care for you?
have you been a victim of bullying while you were growing,
some kind of puny weakling.people picked on you.never won a street fight
you seem to have very strong inferiority complexes dogging you which you are channelising wrongly.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 05, 2009 11:06 PM
185
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> ghulam faruki..... now says he admires voltaire ..... who stood up for the right of free speech.

I have always attributed your inability to distinguish between free speech and hate speech to an intellectual deficit, but I concede that intense hatred can make one stupid.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 05, 2009 11:04 PM
184
Narasimhan M.G. ... thanks for your excellent post ... one of the few worth reading. Its a must read for all chaddies regardless of age or maturity level !

"let me give you a sound advice gayatri,go get a muslim boyfriend "

LOL !!

gayathri--"religion is being carried on in this forum. i disregard this and dont read it. "

And yet you never fail to bring it in to your bile-ridden posts.

"have you seen the crowds of skull capped bearded wonders sorrounding chidambaram, "

Promptly followed by khaki chaddies loose enough to allow free air flow. This is comical. You are insane.

"these opinions are very close to what western liberals have"

Western Liberal is a construct that can mean anything to anyone, from narrow-minded, fundamentalist clogs in Denmark to radical, progressive leftists in Oakland. Unfortunately, you are not even aware that you are a Nazi. The Feuhrer is dead. Get over it.
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 05, 2009 10:59 PM
183
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> i dont think that any religion today
is relavent in the modern world.

What is relevant in this forum is hatred against the religions of others and negative stereotyping of whole communities. You yourself spend the whole day badmouthing Muslims in spite of your promising every few months that you are finished with such despicable activity!
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 05, 2009 08:38 PM
182
mirza

i have asked some one in the police in india to write
about terror in mumbai.

i am disappointed that mr ghai has not written about this. he has faced terror in mumbai several times.
i will prove my account is correct, and apologise if
i am wrong.

the attack on muslims in mumbai was a act which followed the terror actions of dawood ibrahim. he has
an interpol red corner notice pending.

the gujerat killings followed the burning of the sabarmati coach containg kar sevaks. this was an insane
act which resulted in the aftermath,

this is not an isolated incident. pakistani muslims
bombed the u train in london. other muslims bombed the
trains in madrid, restaurants in bali, and numerous
terror actions in indian cities.

this kind of action and reaction will keep going on, and all muslims will be caught in the cross fire.
these days civilian muslims are scared to leave their
homes in pakistan, and the mullahs in india issue a
fatwa against singing vandematram. comic is it not.
why dont these guys leave for their holy land.

for years muslims in india have ghettoised themselves,
and made pin pricks against hindus.e sneering
at hindu customs, religion is being carried on in this forum. i disregard this and dont read it.

hindus should have taken a firm stand right at the beginning, and all western countries should have done the same. muslims must obey the laws and customs of the lands where they live. this applies also to nonmuslims. the constant carping on tiny issues, and
poor performance in the economic and development sectors have resulted in muslims getting a bad image across the world. this is the truth. not lies.

lets stop now.

debates on this issue never result in anything useful.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 05, 2009 08:02 PM
181
orissa 2007,gujarat 2002,bombay 1992,delhi 1984 are a testimonial to your rational behaviour isnt it.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 05, 2009 07:59 PM
180
and a refusal
to give the real account will reduce your already diminished status.....

well it does show you you as a bigoted compulsive liar,dont worry about my stature,thank heavens i have had good character building unlike you.


these are based on rational assesments of islam and muslims. these opinions are very close to what western liberals have, which i am sure you must be
aware of.............

western liberal values and compulsive lies,i dont know where the unity of thought lies,frankly i am exasperated.

who has also had several
name changes. this man now says he admires voltaire,....

gutsy chap,but you arent owning up the fuehrer,too bad.

of people who can not think, reason or act in a civilised manner......

orissa 2007,gujarat 2002,bombay 1984 are a testimonial to your rational behaviour isnt it.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 05, 2009 07:30 PM
179
mirza

i write under the name of gayatri devi, my nom de plume

i used to write under my real name lalit bagai

the reason for takeing on the name gayatri, was because
i was banned 5 times by outlooks moderator on complaints by ghulam faruki,who has also had several
name changes. this man now says he admires voltaire,
the french man who stood up for the right of free speech. its comic . no one knows this better then the
various critics of islam who require police protection
around the clock.

however i ask you once again to refute what i have said that dawood ibrahim resorted to terror against
the people of bombay because of the destruction of the
babrimasjid. this is not spoon feeding, and a refusal
to give the real account will reduce your already diminished status .

my likeing or not likeing muslims has no relavence to
my opinions. these are based on rational assesments of islam and muslims. these opinions are very close to what western liberals have, which i am sure you must be
aware of.

dont play up the role of a victim when you are unable
to answer questions truthfully. however i know that
this is asking for the impossible. whenever cornered,
people of your kind resort to abuse and outrage.

finally muslim men are not gods gift to humanity. just the opposite. i have seldom met one who can reason.

pakistan is an example of people who can not think, reason or act in a civilised manner.most of these people are men. the poor women have no opinions.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 05, 2009 05:35 PM
178
however you have not given your account of what happened in mumbai. let me read your comments about
this......

there is no MY ACCOUNT ,there is only one account factual and true,i cant spoonfeed you,go search for the truth,instead of inventing tales of heroic retaliation and resistance.

indian muslims
need to do the same, but they will not. they seem to
love remaining in the 7th century.....

you hate their guts dont you.thats for sure.


you have used spme abusive words which are the last resort of dogmatic people........

let me give you a sound advice gayatri,go get a muslim boyfriend as khushwant singh remarked,i think thats the only way for your psychological evolution and a way out to sublimate your bigotry.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 05, 2009 04:39 PM
177
mirza

you dont have to praise hinduism as a great religion
to score points. i dont think that any religion today
is relavent in the modern world.

a teenager now has more information available ti him then most mullahs,pandits and padres.

the fact is that you yourself are a follower of an archaic and simplistic religion, which has clouded your
mind.

you have used spme abusive words which are the last resort of dogmatic people.

however you have not given your account of what happened in mumbai. let me read your comments about
this. i look forward to reading them.

have you seen the crowds of skull capped bearded wonders sorrounding chidambaram, whilst he speaks to them in harward english about how much they have contributed to india.

kamal attaturk changed turkey by enforceing moderniseation and westerniseation . indian muslims
need to do the same, but they will not. they seem to
love remaining in the 7th century.

did you also notice the complete absence of women in the huge gatherings. i suppose they were behind closed
doors, waiting for their men folks to come home,
for a hot meal and bed thereafter.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 05, 2009 04:29 PM
176
Jawed Naqvi, columnist of Dawn, in his article titled: Can petty minds create a South Asian confederation, has this to say an interesting piece of observation:? "Her words still ring in my ears to a query on partition: ‘Tenu ki dassan, puttar. Tarikh vich raj badalde si, raja badalda si. Ae ki raj badlya ke prajaa hi badal diti?’ (Son, history witnessed countless changes of kingdoms resulting in the change of kings. What kind of kingdom have we created, in which the people were changed)"

So in my ears, beautifully put through by a simple lady, that a philosopher couldn't have.

For many, 1947 is a reminder and for a few 1971. Pakistan border with Afghanistan would consume them for the rest of the century that 1947 and 1971 would be construed as a blessing in disguise for all.
JAYARAMAN
THANE, India
Nov 05, 2009 12:57 PM
175
`He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who harbour such thoughts hatred is not appeased - The Dhammapada Verse 1

The others know not that in this quarrel we perish; those of them who realise it, have their quarrels calmed thereby. - The Dhammapada Verse 2

"Vaishanava Janatho Tene Kahiye Je Peeda paraayi jaanere."

This prayer, a favourite of Bapu, is a high expression of something called Emotional Intelligence. The opposite of this is emotional idiocy just to give a contrast.

The author has given us a glimpse into the state of mind that traumatize the pakistani elite, including the all-important military. Some of this finds expression in wanting to even the score in Kashmir. We have to be alert in this regard, but at the same time understand our enemy-cum-brother!

None of the "Hindu" and hindutva posters have thought much about this profound Indic civilizational values. We believe that things happen karmically according to previous actions. If Hindu civilisation was invaded and disrupted, it must have been due to a collective Karma. Perhaps "Hindus" lost knowldege of Dharma and became enmeshed in rituals and cruel practices, without understanding the essence of these. There is a difference between a Rite and a ritual. A Rite transforms the inner nature of the person, makes him/her more loving and friendly to all. A ritual is mechanical and meaningless.

People who say that hindus lost all those historical wars because of lack of Kshatriya Gunas forget what Kaushika said to Vasishta after losing his war to take over Vasishta Ashrama - Dhik Balam Kshatriya Balam Brahma Tejo Balam Balam. Kaushika gave up his worldly kingdom to seek a higher kingdom. He became Vishwamitra.

Among muslims as well, there have been these high-minded kings, rulers, philosophers and leaders. Their Caliphates were really happy places. Arab and Persian civilizations flowered during their golden periods. All people with a historical memory will remember their golden periods with pride and attachment. We have our share of these great men as well, from Hazrat Nizamuddin to Santh Saleem Chishti to Akbar and Dara Shikoh. We know how Sant Kabir was loved by both hindu and muslim disciples. We have lived with each other for a thousand years. We are genetically closer to each other than to Arabs or Chinese. We can only identify ourselves as hindu or muslim after being told so by our parents. We think of each other as different only because we are conditioned by other people at an impressionable age. It helps to recognize these conditioning forces. It is extra-ordinary to see that on the one hand we want Akhand Bharat, and on the other hand, the "Other" people to go away.

Whatever unfortunate things that have happened, there is a necessity to learn from it, but with a sense of "Upeksha" for any hurt caused to us or by us. When we forgive others, they forgive us. We are all in the same boat - both saints and sinners. We were not born as human beings to go down the evolutionary ladder into animalism. Let us move on from sub-human to human levels of behaviour and instinct.
Narasimhan M.G
Bangalore, India
Nov 05, 2009 10:21 AM
174
"muslims ruled india for 800 years,there should have been no hindus left then" -- Bazeed Mirza, Edinburgh.

Muslims ruled only parts of India and mostly supported by Hindu Kings. Any Muslim King who displeased the Hindus met with their doom- Aurangzeb is an apt example - the powerful Mughal Dynasty disintegrated within 10-12 years after death of AURANGI in 1707. If Hindus survived for 800 years under Muslim /150 years of Christian rule it is because they were "smarter" than the rest who got converted. The Arabs of Gulf including Arabs of MECCA, Persian Zoroastrians, Afghan and central Asian Buddhist etc could NOT withstand the assault of ISLAM but Hindus survived because they were far more intelligent than the invading MUSLIMS.

Similarly, The natives of South and North America, Australia and New Zealand could not hold out against the relentless Christian assault and perished as a community. America was discovered by Christians in only in 1492 and in about 350 to 400 years the "natives" of the TWO continent were exterminated. Australia was discovered by Christians in 1609 and New Zealand much later in 1769 but the local culture could NOT survive the onslaught of Christianity and crumbled in about 250 to 300 years. But Hindus have survive 800 years because the people who follow this great religion were more intelligent and smarter. It is INTELLIGENCE and not BRUTE FORCE which survived on the planet Earth.
Akil
Bangalore, India
Nov 05, 2009 07:34 AM
173
And yeah, to his(Khurram Hussain) Logic, India definately is a post post post CIVIL war society, after losing Afghanistan, Pakistan, Burma, Srilanka & on & on? SAME OLD RIDICULOUS & TWISTED PAKISTANI LOGICS.
sam
San Jose, United States
Nov 05, 2009 05:34 AM
172
gayathri--"i have recently read a book by aatish taseer" stranger in history."

Thats amazing. You have gradauated up from mario puzo.

--"in 1992 the hindu extremists brought down the babri masjid. i disapprove of such insane acts, but in any
case why did muslims get so riled up about this."

Do you really disapprove or were you one of the million other cowards who secretly cheered ?

--"europeans have had enormous wars, cruelty, killings on an unheard scale"

And yet you hold them up as role models and cannot seem to stop prostrating before them. How shameless.
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 05, 2009 02:23 AM
171
post world war II, germany repented for the sins after the entire leadership that committed them were wiped out. post 1971 the leadership that committed the atrocities still remains. hence the inability to repent. that is india's and world's mistake.
sam raman
chennai, India
Nov 05, 2009 02:20 AM
170
following this shiv sena attacked muslim localities.
this is factual......

arent you ashamed of distorting facts,where is your sense of shame.leave aside a pan vendor has a better recollection of events.

however i still claim that hinduism has been
a moderateing religion......

hinduism is a great religion which gave the world the wisdom of gita,the philosophy of vaidanta,made india so spritually exalted so as to attract muslim sufis from four corners of the world to take up residence and even die here,its not a religion of bigoted liars and punks .so dont blot it,it s like devil quoting the bible.

peoples now liveing in afghanistan and pakistan were disciples of budha......

they were violent even then,they harrassed and fought alexander,the mongols and the arabs,and each other.something in their genes,very praetorian mindsets.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 05, 2009 02:08 AM
169
Khurram,

You may have a point when it comes to Pakistan's self image in comparison to India. However i do not see any qualitative change in the way Pakistan goes about things.

From the very inception of these two states Pakistan's modus operandi has been to use some type of disguise for their forces and attack Indian territory. You will see from the briefest description of major incidences, that things were much the same before 1971. http://en.wikipedia....n_India_and_Pakistan

Can you point to any activities of Pakistan government, from 1947 to 1971, that show any friendlier or at least less violent way of dealing with India?
Rudy
Seattle, United States
Nov 05, 2009 01:55 AM
168
mirza

the events of babrimasjid demolition, were followed
by dawood ibrahims bombing of mumbai. sanjay dutt
was also arrested.

following this shiv sena attacked muslim localities.
this is factual, and mr ghai who lives in mumbai
can confirm or refute it.

it is my firm conviction that the minds of most muslims
is blinded because of their faith in a very dogmatic
religion, which is completly incompatible with this time and age.

the state of muslim societies world wide is proof of
this. i have recently read a book by aatish taseer" stranger in history. A journey through islamic countries" it describes the way muslims think in several islamic countries.

thank heavens muslims did not convert all hindus to
islam. it would have been a disaster.

we have to be grateful for this great mercy.

several centuries ago the peoples now liveing in afghanistan and pakistan were disciples of budha.

what has the world gained by their conversion to islam.
today these countries have become killing fields,
and chambers of horror.

india as it is ,is far from my idea of a great country. the worst of it is not poverty, filth but he failure of its people to think rationally.

those who profess religion to any great extent are
the worst. however i still claim that hinduism has been
a moderateing religion.india would have been in dire
straits if it had a islamic majority like in pakistan

right or wrong.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 05, 2009 01:25 AM
167
muslims took their revenge by bombing of bombay .
dawood ibrahim was behind this. this again lead to
killings later on engineered by the shiv sena......

are you sure this was the sequence of events,if you are its pathetic,i can only pity you and your integrity and propriety.

and smart kumars and august aaa,
would have been forcibly converted or forced to flee
for their lives.......

is that so,muslims ruled india for 800 years,there should have been no hindus left then.as for me having antipathy or anything,my closest friend professional or personal are hindu but i am lucky they are one of the most evolved people i have met,we wine dine together but keep off each others faith and rituals thats why our friendship has endured,
my wife is hindu,she hasnt converted or changed her name.for me shes just an individual from another social group married into mine.

f there are two idealogies which resemble each other
in the fuhrer principle it is islam and hitlers nazism......

have you gone through we and our nationhood defined by golwalkar,just figure out who the inspiration for that was.
i have learnt one thing in life even a rowdy can be a fascist a rightist or a nazi,but one has to be really evolved to be beyond this,i am,but your thinking is too pedestrian to even deserve enlightenment or redemption.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 05, 2009 01:17 AM
166
>> "See my response here:"

You and Khurram are two peas in a pod!
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 05, 2009 12:51 AM
165
K.V. Bapa Rao
Los Angeles, USA
Nov 05, 2009 12:50 AM
164
mirza

here is the hindu view of atrocities in india.

1. jinnah launched his direct action in 1946/47 to
demand pakiatan. it started with killings in calcutta.
it went on for days.

2. india was at peace for years after this.

then in 1965 pakistan attacked india, in an effort to
annex kashmir. the result was a stand still.

3 thereafter there was peace again for several years.
west pakistan and india fought a war in 1971, because
10 million bangladeshis mostly hindus left and sought
refuge in india. india could not accept such a burden,
and joined the muktibeheni to throw out the pakistan army.

it is well known and corraborated by the american consul in dacca that the pakistan army had launched a rain of terror. huge numbers of bangladeshi civilians
were killed and many women were raped. dip can provide
further information.

the indian army captured the entire pakistani army,
and these were released after one year along with their arms.

indians were naive in not getting any witten agreements
from pakistan in subsequent meetings between indira
and bhutto. this would have serious consequences later
on.

around 1980 pakistan started to help sikh terrorists,
who killed many hindu innocent civilians. they were
pulled out of buses and killed. jarnail singh referred to indira gandhi as that hindu girl. he said that every sikh should kill 33 hindus and take over india.

this lead to the attack on the golden temple dureing
which most of the terrorists were killed.

thereafter indira gandhi was assasinated by her sikh
gaurds, and which lead to the murder of sikhs.

it was deplorable and henious. should never happen.

however i can not overlook the acts of the sikh terrorists for targetting hindus. in the end they
started killing their own people,and were put down by
k.p.s.gill.

in 1992 the hindu extremists brought down the babri masjid. i disapprove of such insane acts, but in any
case why did muslims get so riled up about this. it
was an old ruin, and many hindus believed that it had been built on a temple devoted to ram.

muslims took their revenge by bombing of bombay .
dawood ibrahim was behind this. this again lead to
killings later on engineered by the shiv sena.

in 2002 the sabarmati was burnt down with 52 hindu
activists. it was an insane act, and bound to cause
reaction in gujerat.

it did have a violent reaction with many muslims killed in the massacre thereafter.

i disapprove of this, and i have wondered why congress,
communist rulers did not fly immediately to stop the
killings.

in any case muslims have through numerous terror actions killed hundreds of innocent people in the
aftermath .

the most shameful is that many muslims have tried to
protect the guilty ones as in batala house.a train
load of muslims arrived from azamgarh to protest at
the imprisoning of innocent muslims.

after the last attack on mumbai some muslim leaders
tried to pin the blame for killing of karkare on to
hindu extremists.

muslims do not have a clean record in india. the worst
ofcource is that they will never plead guilty of any
crimes. they come up with irrational conspiracy theories, and play up as victims.in all cases they find
regular allies amongst many naive nonmuslims.

you say that i would promote a regime like the third
reich. this shows your contemptible ignorance about me
and the theory behind nazism.

if there are two idealogies which resemble each other
in the fuhrer principle it is islam and hitlers nazism.

in fact mehemmet has a near godly status, and is an ikon, whose acts however repulsive are accepted by
his followers as being just and fair.the case of the 55
year old prophet marrying a 9 year old girl child is considered repulsive by nonmuslims. muslims are pathetic in trying to find acceptable explanations.

in this islam is a religion like none other.every verse
in the koran, every command of mehemmet is obeyed as
if it was the word of god. people who are followers
of such a faith are difficult to absorb in societies of free thinking people. there is evidence of this across the world.

muslims like you criticise hindu india. imagine how it
would have been if muslims were a majority in this country. the naive and smart kumars and august aaa,
would have been forcibly converted or forced to flee
for their lives.

there would not be any arundhati roy preaching hate
against everything about india. she would be sitting
at home, and clad in a burqa when she ventured out.

today the most extremist muslim can walk and speak
freely in india. those who speak against islam like
tasleema nasreen, hindu leaders require 24 hour police protection.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 04, 2009 11:32 PM
163
unhappy ram--"How many innocent Britishers have been killed by your Pak sponsered Islamic Jehadies ?"

How many of my Indians have been killed by your Hindutva goons ??
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 04, 2009 10:27 PM
162
i am not looking for a pure hindu state, but more
certainly a country with international standards
of governance.........

something like the third reich,germany of 1930s
oscar wilde said once patriotism is the virtue of the vicious,i can guess which type.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 04, 2009 10:22 PM
161
these lands are full of hate and conflicts.

just see how minorities and women are treated.........

yeah gujarat 2002,delhi 1984,bombay 1992,orissa 2007 occured there isnt it.
wake up,ur nazi outlook will consume you with melancholy.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 04, 2009 10:25 AM
160
"do you have any estimate the cost human and financial ordinary innocent citizens india in india have paid in pakistan sponsored terrorist incidents ever since.."

Bazeed Mirza

How many innocent Britishers have been killed by your Pak sponsered Islamic Jehadies ? And what costs have been effected ? In France how many ? In Germany how many ? In China how many ? 9/11 in New York how many ? In Pakistan how many and what cost by Paki Talibanies and ISI ? Afganistan ?

TALK OF 1947,1971, 2009 IS MEANINGLESS .It is in blood of Pakistanies .World knows it .
happy ram ambalvi
Ambala Cantt, India
Nov 04, 2009 10:16 AM
159
"How do you know for a fact that Pak would have sent terrorists even if India had not meddled in its affairs"

According to what you say, Pakistan was highly friendly to India in the period between 1947-1971, then suddenly turned hostile. Rubbish! Pakistan's very existence is based on being anti-India and not-India and not-Hindu. It has no positive, life-affirming ideology of its own. Your reading of the 1971 war is sickening, and borders on high treason.
Arunachal Pradesh is not under military rule. It has free and fair elections with multi-party elections under universal adult franchise. More than 75% of the people voted in the recent state election. China would not be liberating anything there. They would be imposing their own totalitarian, quasi-fascist politbureau rule.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 04, 2009 09:02 AM
158
"do you have any estimate the cost human and financial ordinary innocent citizens in india have paid in pakistan sponsored terrorist incidents ever since"..
Bazeed Mirza, Edinburgh

PAKIS would have sponsored terrorism in India irrespective of 1971 war. PAKIS are even now using Bangladesh to launch attack on India but it would have been many fold higher had Bangladesh continued to be EAST PAKISTAN.

PAKIS will continue to sponsor terrorism in India even if the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir were to be "given" to Pakistan and Indian citizens would have paid even without 1947, 1965, 1971 and Kargil War. Anti-Indian sentiment is the "ONLY FORCE" that holds PAKIS together. Pakistan has become the fountain head of WORLD TERRORISM because of the spread of "fanatic Islamic beliefs" in that country and NOT because of any WARS as propounded by "KHURRAM HUSSAIN POSTULATE". Why else should PAKI nationals spread TERROR in UK, a country which sided with PAKIS in 1947 and many years thereafter. What HUSSAIN is trying to propagate is that "PAKIS alone are not responsible for the mess they are in today", but the whole world including India has created it for PAKIS- and so gives us "ALMS/HAND OUTS" or Pakistan will become a failed ISLAMIC NUCLEAR STATE.

And then MIRZA would say- "do you have any estimate the cost human and financial ordinary innocent citizens of the WORLD have paid by not "giving BILLIONS OF DOLLARS as ALMS" to pakistan
Akil
Bangalore, India
Nov 04, 2009 06:38 AM
157
--"it would be something like a country
in europe, or australia, canada or new zealand. "

Now that youve identified where you want to live you should start making preperations to move.

--o.p.--"But are you scared?
suddenly jumping out of "Blue". I am sure you did not drop from Heavens. "

Is any of this relevant to the discussion on hand or are you another of those 'time-pass' vendors ?
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 04, 2009 06:27 AM
156
Mr. R, Bangalorean

Thank you for your comment. But are you scared? Let people know who you are. "R" , suddenly jumping out of "Blue". I am sure you did not drop from Heavens. Someone at some stage did bear down the "Labour". But did you enquire from her, if Lucy or Her progenies did not have birth pangs for you?

For the sake of clarity, please let me know, "Which Lucy did you mean". Is it the Tanzanian complete skeleton found in 1974 aged about 3 million years old of a female Hominid; or the Saint Lucy (The virgin) martyred by Diocletian in Syracuse. Then another question makes a priori about the origin of Saint Lucy and her origin of progenies.

Secondly, saint Lucy (The Virgin) is not explained to have had her lineage. A little misty?

Thank you. With regards,
Dr. O. P. Sudrania
Siliguri, India
Nov 04, 2009 06:13 AM
155
senthamarai

i am not looking for a pure hindu state, but more
certainly a country with international standards
of governance. it would be something like a country
in europe, or australia, canada or new zealand.

the people would be liberal, secular, and free of
religious dogma and bigotry.

this says it all.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 04, 2009 05:54 AM
154
mirza

i observe the views and expressions of people around the world.

in many country muslims are in conflict with others,
and sometimes with each other.just look at nigeria,
somalia, sudan, egypt in africa.

in iraq, iran, lebenon, yemen,afghanistan, pakistan,
bangladesh. these lands are full of hate and conflicts.

just see how minorities and women are treated. there is
little respect even for animals.musharaff holding
2 pet dogs in his arms was lambasted by mullahs.

you have some nerve to blame nonmuslims for your
problems today. europeans have had enormous wars, cruelty, killings on an unheard scale. however the
christian religion has had a moderateing effect on european nations. the europeans have also modified their religion, and have gone through the renaiisance
and the reformation. democracy is a european idealogy though based on ancient greek philosophers

my views are not shaped by hinduism or nationalism.
i can get on well with most people of good will haveing
worked with various nationalities in exxon, business
and finance. i am concerned with deprived humans and
wild life which is now threatened every where.

however i will not close my eyes to the facts on the
ground. muslims have broken india into three pieces, and now kashmir is trying to leave. it is being stopped
by the army . is this not an admission that kashmiri
muslims want to leave india and are being prevented
in doing so.

it is my conviction that muslims are blinded by their
religion for which they will go to any lengths. this
is evident from the efforts of muslims to kill the
people behind th cartoons of the prophet. i can not
accept that islam is a tolerant or peaceful religion.
it is exactly the opposite of this, and muslim countries these days are covered in blood.

how can people deny this when they have a ring side
seat to happenings in india ,pakistan and abroad.

how can i believe that muslims are kind people,when we
listen to the tapes recorded of terrorists and their
handlers dureing 26 elleven 2008.pakistan is now denying this shameful act.have indian muslims sent a
delegation to pakistan or oic to protest.

secularists are doing their very best to whitewash muslims, and brush ugly acts under the carpet. it is
both stupid and futile.

to europeans i suggest that they study the communal
conflict in india. to indians of all religions i suggest that they study the situation in europe.

the situations are similar. despite best efforts muslims have not tried to integrate with the majority
community. if anything they are doing their stubborn
best to become more muslim then ever before.europe has
tried to win over muslims by extraordinary generousity
it has not worked.

it is sensible now to think of new out of the box
solutions. muslims shuld introspect, and accept that they are responsible largely for their problems. denials , evasions and smart replique will not work.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 04, 2009 04:50 AM
153
--"Imagine, where would we all have been if the Adam and Eve would not have decided to undergo these painful "Labours". "

Sorry ... my ancestors has nothing to do with Adam and Eve. In all probability they were related to Lucy !
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 04, 2009 04:37 AM
152
--mirza--"made a mess out of this great country,igniting deep conflicts in every nook and corner of this sacred land. this is your real face,i am holding this mirror to you."

Its a mirror to every Hindutva chaddie and their supporters. Their lack of support in the country drives them to extremism. Hindutvaism is dead. Good riddance.
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 04, 2009 04:10 AM
151
Varun,

>> it's a wonder there isn't more anti-Moslem feeling.

That must be very disappointing for you!
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 04, 2009 03:37 AM
150
Actually, Gaurav and Gayatri, each in their own way, have expressed a very human sentiment regarding Moslems in the subcontinent. After everything India has been through historically, and even in the present in Kashmir, it's a wonder there isn't more anti-Moslem feeling. The trouble with people criticising these ideas, is that they cannot point to another country that has experienced what India has, and still come out looking very good, tolerant, accommodating, democratic and pluralistic. For the life of me, I cannot name such a country.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 04, 2009 03:32 AM
149
Gayatri Devi's observations and perspectives are are very astute and mostly accurate; we can disagree on matters of detail, rarely on essence. You cannot pigeon-hole people like Gayatri or V.Seshadri into "right wing, conservative saffron, Hindu nationalist' blah blah blah. We should be happy to have people like that among Indians or persons of Indian background. They give liveliness and complexity to our discussions.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 04, 2009 03:27 AM
148
Ma'm Gayatri Devi,

I would hate to contradict you but when you are in Delhi, you should have been aware of Dr Farooq Abdullah's recent statement that Kashmiris (implying muslims) will never leave India. He has contradicted you. I had sent him also a terse message, not for this, but for his second observation.

He went on to say that people of India should stop doubting that Kashmiris will leave India. How do you reconcile your views with a central minister in Govt of India. My reply was that it for the people of Kashmir to convince Indians that they want to live with India. Do you agree with me or with Dr Abdullah or still you your another opinion? I leave it to your prudent judgement.

I openly and clearly blame Jinnah and his post indepndence designs and the long trail of deciet and shrewd politicing that has not only left India in threat but they have become a state of exporters of terror all over the world.

You blame UK or USA or any other society, that is a long chapter I shall not open. But if I say that one should jump from the fifth floor on the ground. S/He jumps and dies. Now my canning question is, "Who will you blame". I would say that the person did it should have exercised his prudence before doing it, no point further; because we all have to learn and grow up, lest you are prepared for a level of a "Psychiatric Case". A prudence has to be expected from a prudent man. The entire legal machinery of 'Common Law' has been designed on this very principle.

They always say,"Ignorance of Law is not an excuse". I,
though as a Surgeon, always ask,"Then why is it that we
physians have to be blamed for ignorance of medical knowledge in the same set of people". They fail to reply me. Now, what do you do? I tell you, "Ggrin and bear". Keep praying the Almighty while practicing.

I do not know, if we can answer for everything that happens or takes place in this visible world, but I have a deep conviction - do not fear, do not bow before injustice. Because the truth has to prevail at last. The journey may not be easy. You can not expect a University to award you a degree without going through the vigours of examinations; or a mother deliver a child without the pangs of labour.

The word "Labour" used for delivery of a child in itself is self explanatory. The hard "Labour" a mother has to undergo to pruduce a beautiful baby should show the value of "Labour". Imagine, where would we all have been if the Adam and Eve would not have decided to undergo these painful "Labours".

Life is to live. It is hard enough, please do not make it harder. It reminds me of a Kabir's couplet,

"Toon jab aayaa jag mein, jag hansaa toon roya;
Ayesee karnee karake jaa, toon hanse jag roya."

God bless,

Live and let live, not grab and gulp
Dr. O. P. Sudrania
Siliguri, India
Nov 04, 2009 02:37 AM
147
for heavens sake leave india if you hate it so much.....

we dont but you certainly do.thats for sure,
for a thousand years india had been a cosmopolitan society,absorbing every race and culture imbibing everything,so enriching and enriched creating counter to other civilisation whether western,chinese or saracenic.
what happened in last few decades starting with middle class bong clerks.people like you fed and gifted with poisoned inferiorty complex of not being able to resist central asian warlords a thousand years back ,using this as a source of hate and means to power power,deeply influenced by nazism,a philosophy long discarded by europe.made a mess out of this great country,igniting deep conflicts in every nook and corner of this sacred land.
this is your real face,i am holding this mirror to you.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 04, 2009 02:33 AM
146
--"for heavens sake leave india if you hate it so much. "

This is exactly my advice to you. You have repeatedly heaped abuse on Indians and India, especially minorities. You are willing to further partition India into small Hindu States with Hindu fundamentalist populations. Why do you hate India so much. Is it because despite your euro-centric bias and doomsday prophecies, India somehow manages to survive ? However flawed India is most Indians will never prescribe to your trecherous, traitorous, fundamentalist world-view.
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 04, 2009 02:28 AM
145
Dear Mr Khurram Hussain,

Let me first say that I am neither a politician nor a sympathiser of a religion which misguide people in the name of religion. I, with my all humility, but remorselessly, will try to hate and eliminate that religion from earth, be it Hindu, be it Islam , be it Christianity or be it whatever else. That is why, I have been recently advocating a theory of "ONE GLOBAL NATION" where there will be: Only one religion, That is the Religion of Love. There will be only one Language, that is the Language of Heart. There will be only one cast, that is the cast of Humanity. Wipe out everything else, if the 'Human Society' has to survive. We wanted to "CONVERT" the "MAN" into "HUMAN" but it has turned into "WHO-MAN"(A living Frankenstein). It is impressive that you are in US at big Universities studies some religion. You recently came to India and your heart bled to 1971, but 1947 is not of much significance to your perception.

But you forget that the 1971 was not a cause but a result of not just 14/15 August 1947, but several more serious and grievous misadventures undertaken by the Pakistani leadership. I am being polite in my descriptions, though they hardly deserve that.

(1) Have you read that CIA FOIA Document: Sheikh Abdullah and The Kashmir Issue - dated 22 April 1964, SC No. 00616/64B, Copy No. 2. It was a secret document and released in Dec 1999.

(2) You have shown complete insensitivity to the fact that that Pakistan is established as an Islamic state, but India as a Secular, Socialist, Democratic, Republic
- you should recognise this sea depth difference.

(3) Between 1971 and August 1947, you fail to acknowledge the grievous wars inflicted by the Pakistani Leadership starting from October 1947, only barely a couple of months had passed after the millions were slaughtered on both sides of the divided subcontinent. I again show no hesitation to blame it to misadventure of Jinnah. Nehru said,"By cutting the head, you get rid of headache". Did he? The blood was still fresh on the soil. Gandhi appeased Jinnah, called him Quaid-e-Azam and Jaswant is another most unfortunate example but you have again remorselessly, in stead of appreciating the Indian mindset including BJP, you are underplaying the grace. How depressing?

(3) Are you expecting medals for such a criminal state?
Though America had been trying to appease the Pakistan,
but Pakistani delinquency never realised it. They, in stead of concentrating on emancipation and development of post independence war torn nation (on both sides), neither they have rested nor have they allowed the Indians to rest and live in peace. These are the hard facts, you unfortunately missed out to read. Because you are no less a sufferer of the religious paranoia, as I see very sadly.

(4)I believe, you are a young man, I shall hate to discourage you. But be careful for your "Gulliver's Travels" and misadventures in this wild world of sharks and vultures.

Education without Character; Politics without Principles; Science without Humanity; and Commerce without Morality, is not only useless but positively dangerous. Remember.

(5) Before I finish, you may like to go to the following link of legendary Prof. Bernard Lewis: "What went wrong?:Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response (2002)" - http://brothersjudd....s.detail/book_id/979
He must be 90+ now if still alive. He has been christened as "A Sage in Christendom" by FOUAD AJAMI. Go to the link: http://www.opinionjo...re.html?id=110008313
This is his personal dedication to Prof. Bernard Lewis.

I now have to expressly say that my intention is not to hurt anybody. But it is my earnest attempt to dissuade one and all using religion as a shield first for multiplying manpower on moral grounds, then incite passion for achieving immoral ends, this should be exposed at all cost and eradicated from its roots for ever. In that humble attempt, I have no apologies to anyone.

Respect should beget respect; not hatred. I am prepared to expect everyone to live, provided I am also allowed to live. Otherwise, everything will remain only paper work, while "The Humanity" slowly decay and die.

Promotion of Hate can not be expected to yield fruits of Love, and remember the Law of Newton,"Every action has equal and opposite reaction".

I fervently appeal to all sides for a peaceful coexistence. God bless. Let us all be good and gracious
. Not canny and thrifty but kind. If it appeared a terse prose, I explain to say that it is in the course of stating the hard realities without a bias to anyone in singularity - nation, cast, religion or a society. If it is understood that way, please correct me. I shall be graceful and grateful for educating me.

With Love To One And All and no malice to none.

I love you.
Dr. O. P. Sudrania
Siliguri, India
Nov 04, 2009 01:57 AM
144
mirza, r, sentamarai

muslims of kashmir want to leave india. the message they send is loud and clear. it is both stupid and
decietful to deny this.

from a commonsense point of view,i think they shoud be allowed to leave. i would advocate this even if they
were hindu pandits wanting independence.

pakistani,s today are proud of their country. i think
there is nothing wrong with this attitude. i am surprised why some indian muslims do not wish a separate state,which will give them self rule, and
an opportunity for greater independence.

a muslim state in kerala would be able to build direct
relations with saudi arabia and the gulf, where many of
them work and live.

it is a bit comic. in 1947 most muslims wanted to live in pakistan. today some muslims dislike india, but
will not leave , claiming it is their right to live in
a country dominated by idol worshippers.

for heavens sake leave india if you hate it so much.
in case you wish to live there,then stop wailing and
moaning, and work to build on the opportunities that
are available. try and adapt and stop being a nation by itself , and a pain in the butt for the others.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 04, 2009 12:22 AM
143
gau-rav1-- "step 1 should be total annihilation of Pakistan's nuclear weapons, even if it comes at the expense of a few small nuclear holocausts"

Wow ! I suppose you are sitting comfortably ensconced in an air-conditioned suite in Suburbia, U.S.A., while spewing this bile. Are you seriously suggesting a nuclear holocaust is acceptable for whatever the reason ? What about the rest of us living here ? Im convinced fundamentalist NRI's are the worst terrorists. No Jihadi can summon up this much venom.
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 04, 2009 12:01 AM
142
gau-rav--"The only thing that this race of criminals deserve is TOTAL & FINAL EXTERMINATION"

I can only hope you say this in jest. I suppose this is an attempt at satire.


--"you ignore that kashmiri muslims wish to leave. "

Where did you extract this factoid from ? The forthright answer is NO ... but you want them to leave similar to how i want you to leave. Ignorance is a heady elixir.
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 03, 2009 11:06 PM
141
in gayathri's case, he wants a purer Hindu state devoid of muslims......

what a loser dream,muslims arent a gauntlet to think off,anyway in a couple of years the bahujan samaj will be ruling class.so devi needs to brush up arguements and new factoids.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 03, 2009 10:55 PM
140
R,

>> self rule for muslims is a good idea.

I have to agree with gayathri for once even though reasons might be different (in gayathri's case, he wants a purer Hindu state devoid of muslims). Except for the part that he wants to pack Indian muslims away with kashmiris
Senthamarai
Chennai, India
Nov 03, 2009 10:50 PM
139
Mr Hussain, Yours is a nice try of portraying Pakistan a post civil war society & hence its obvious reactions(Military adventurism) against much larger India but you probably missed to recognize so many events before and after that, like,
1> 1st Military Coup happened in 1958
2> 1965 WAR, operation Gibraltar, was perhaps the biggest misadventure.
3> 1970's Talibanisation (Zia's time) of Afghanistanis, Strategic depth concepts
4> Never ever concentrating on economy/welfare/civil society rather projecting as a rental state of big powers, 1948 itself
5> Kargil
6> U-turn on 9/11 & War on terror
7> Double games played by Musharraf

Actually, by the logic you are giving, any one can choose any date and put it at center to focus on & interpretate Pakistani psyche, Its true we understand Pakistanis like no one can, because we have seen how a population lost its history at 1947 for nothing and is a direction less society today, if you still don't agree, read this, as Pakistan Prepares itself for China now :-)
http://www.nation.co...-President-Hu-Jintao or Simply Google "look east policy"
sam
San Jose, United States
Nov 03, 2009 10:47 PM
138
Terrorism is Pakistan's main export. Pakistan shields the cultivation of Islamic Terrorists with its growing nuclear arsenal. So long as the US keeps getting tempted and manipulated by Pakistan, there will be no end in Islamic Terrorism. To defang Pakistana nd draw the posion out, the step 1 should be total annihilation of Pakistan's nuclear weapons, even if it comes at the expense of a few small nuclear holocausts ( when the ever irresponsible Pakis disperse them to Jihadis ).
Gau_Rav1
nowhereland, Japan
Nov 03, 2009 10:41 PM
137
1971 humiliation of PAKI ARMY in Bangladesh possible, where in, 93000 PAKI soldiers from General to Jawan surrendered before Indian Army in Bangladesh.....

at what cost,may i ask,
do you have any estimate the cost human and financial ordinary innocent citizens india in india have paid in pakistan sponsored terrorist incidents ever since..
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 03, 2009 10:38 PM
136
Let us be very clear about Moslems in the Indian subcontinent - they came here and propagated by the sword. Pakistan exists because die - hard British Imperialists like Winston Churchill helped to create it so as to break up the Indian independence movement. Likewise the Moslems invaded the Hindu / Buddhist land of Kashmir in the 13 th century and grew there by rape, killing, forced conversion, genocide, ethnic cleansing of non - Moslems. The cowardly govt. in Delhi has allowed this to continue even now and quarter million Pandits ( Hindus ) have been ehtnically cleansed during the last 2 decades.

If Moslems want to continue in their EVIL ways and then claim separation by vote rigging, then they must not squeal " human rights abuse " and seek protection

The only thing that this race of criminals deserve is TOTAL & FINAL EXTERMINATION
Gau_Rav1
nowhereland, Japan
Nov 03, 2009 10:24 PM
135
"You are a good Fiction writer. Keep it up .....

am i really,
how the war started in kashmir in october 47,go and read alistair lambs disputed legacy ,these people never accepted sheikh abdullahs leadership ,never were in love with his overtures to nehru and a lot of them were to suffer in pogroms of jammu november 47,
it was some time later that tribals and pakistanis joined the fray.
looks like you watched a lot of films division newsreel stuff .these canards which formed the continous kashmir narrative in india,like other fictions ,like india being backstabbed by china in 1962,even though nehru was repeatedly fingering them on the border with his forward policy.,
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 03, 2009 09:43 PM
134
r

you can be as impertinent as you can.

you ignore that kashmiri muslims wish to leave.

should they be forced to stay in india.

answer this question in a forthright manner.

would you oppose independence fo muslims in kerala,
if they demanded it.

i would not. self rule for muslims is a good idea.
pakistan has proved that muslims can build a peaceful,
modern state. they should be given a chance whereever
possible.do you disagree.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 03, 2009 09:32 PM
133
--"i am all for kashmiri muslims leaveing india.
i have said it for years.they are a burden on india. "

Lets go one step further. All disenchanted and unhappy Hindus should leave India. Obviously they are a minority and Hindu Rashtra will never happen so they should move to Nepal or some other country ... preferably Sudan.
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 03, 2009 09:31 PM
132
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
"one question arises,then why promise plebiscite" - HERE IS HISTORY FOR YOU MIRZA,

India and Pakistan retained the UK military officers for the transition period due to chaotic communal clashes which broke out on partition. The UK chiefs of staff reasoned that Pakistan had to be kept on board to preserve British "strategic positions in the Middle East and North Africa". Employing typical communal logic, it was felt that estranging Pakistan would harm Britain’s relations with the "whole Mussulman bloc", a premise that would be fatal when the Kashmir war came up before the UN Security Council. Briefed that the "area of Pakistan is strategically the most important in the continent of India and the majority of UK's strategic requirements could be met … by an agreement with Pakistan alone", Mountbatten and the British personnel in India knew whom not to displease. Around the same time, the partition of Palestine to create Israel earned bitter Arab recriminations against Britain and America, and the UK decided, "Arab MUSSULMAN opinion might be further aggravated if British policy on Kashmir were seen as being unfriendly to a Muslim state", meant that British proposals in the Security Council were supportive of Pakistan on every major point. Kashmir’s accession to India was ignored and the problem of "MUSSULMAN TRIBAL" invasion pushed under the carpet. British restricted Indian offensive action in Kashmir to the utmost and relayed all vital intelligence to his opposing number in Pakistan, allowing the latter to relocate forces in most vulnerable sectors.

NOW YOU KNOW WHY NEHRU SUCCUMBED TO PLEBISCITE DEMAND IN UN and why Indian Army "led by INDIANS" made 1971 humiliation of PAKI ARMY in Bangladesh possible, where in, 93000 PAKI soldiers from General to Jawan surrendered before Indian Army in Bangladesh.
Akil
Bangalore, India
Nov 03, 2009 08:22 PM
131
"these guys were muslims from jammu district who were veterans of ww2,go through books on this subject,who found when they came back that the weapons they had handed over to the monarchs army ended up in the hands of hindu rightwingers.this is how it started"

"You are a good Fiction writer. Keep it up ."

Or may be Mirza is watching too many lollywood movies.

My question to Mr Mirza, if this was true, why pakistan did not agree to have plebiscite as per UN resolution in 1948? I am sure everyone in Kashmir would have voted for Pakistan.
Maha
NJ, United States
Nov 03, 2009 08:10 PM
130
"when the MUSLIM PAKI TRIBALS supported by PAKI ARMY invaded Kashmir......

these guys were muslims from jammu district who were veterans of ww2,go through books on this subject,who found when they came back that the weapons they had handed over to the monarchs army ended up in the hands of hindu rightwingers.this is how it started "

Mirza


You are a good Fiction writer. Keep it up .
A KUMAR
MUMBAI, India
Nov 03, 2009 07:56 PM
129
mirza

i asked a direct question.

do you support the demand for kashmir separateing from
india/ i think it will be a big relief for the kashmiri muslims, pakistan,india and the world community.

lack of commonsense, guts are hindering this separation. if india accepted partition of india, why
are we not accepting this partition for kashmir.

some indian muslims should be allowed to settle down in kashmir. it will be great opportunity for them.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 03, 2009 07:23 PM
128
That is it. Kashmir became part of India the way Patiala, Gwalior and all the other princely states became part of India...

one question arises,then why promise plebescite.nehru did repeatedly.it wasnt done in patiala or anywhere else.

TRIBALS to Kashmir as a Major. Read that book and clear your doubt. The TRIBALS were Paki Muslims.....

i was talking of the original spark,just read alistair lambs a disputed legacy these were jammu district people who ultimately embroiled both the tribals and then pakistanis,these areas now comprise the pok.they are a different lot than kashmiris racially ,speak different language,and are very martial and warlike unlike kashmiris of the valley who are basically trader by caste and class and mindset.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 03, 2009 07:21 PM
127
akil

lets concentrate on the present.

kashmiri muslims want out.

what do we gain by keeping them in indian union by force. nothing at all.

we lose because we have a constant fight on our hands with pakistan.we lose because we have to spend enormous sums subsidesing these kashmiri guys. we lose
because we spend enormous sums on s military occupation.

we lose by getting a bad name internationally. we lose
because the kashmiri muslims increase the islamic presence in india.

keeping these guys by force in the union is a very bad deal.

international powers could sweeten the deal. give india
10 billion euros to part with kashmir. let pakistan accept a couple of million dissatisfied indian muslims.

it would be great deal.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 03, 2009 06:58 PM
126
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
There is a book written by PAKI Brigadier who led the MUSLIM TRIBALS to Kashmir as a Major. Read that book and clear your doubt. The TRIBALS were Paki Muslims.

"kashmiris never were enamored to india ,never did accede to india" -

The BRITISH PARLIAMENT- the "mother of all Parliaments" did NOT give a choice to the people of any of the "erstwhile princely states" to select the country they wanted to join, when British Parliament passed the The Indian Independence Act 1947. The choice was to be exercised by the King of each princely state and the King of Kashmir opted to join India although after a bit of coxing by PAKI MUSLIM TRIBALS. That is it. Kashmir became part of India the way Patiala, Gwalior and all the other princely states became part of India.

By the way The KHANS of Kalat, Bugthi etc of present Baluchistan also did not want to join Pakistan. The Paki Army coxed them to join Pakistan due to geographic realities similar to what India did to Hyderabad (Deccan). So if the entire process is challenged the KHANS of Baluchistan would be the FIRST ask for independence- and with mineral wealth and sea port they would be more viable independent states than "landlocked" Kashmir.
Akil
Bangalore, India
Nov 03, 2009 06:44 PM
125
"Dismemberment" or selective amnesia, dont the pakistani intellectuals realise that 1947 holds the same significance to us what 1971 held to you. Isnt Pakistan a dismemberment of India pre 1947.

Our freedom fighters whether it was Gandhi or Jinnah fought against the British for a land whose neighbors were Afghanistan and Iran to the west and Myanmar to the east.

It is because of creation of Pakistan, to satisfy Jinnah's ego that 35-40% of humanity are living under collective scars of poverty, malnourishment and other similar vices.

But yes if you r a politician it sure was a good thing because everyone can blame the "Foreign hand" for all the ills of India or Pakistan.
Trideep Choudhary
Mumbai, India
Nov 03, 2009 06:44 PM
124
mirza

i am all for kashmiri muslims leaveing india.
i have said it for years.they are a burden on india.
a roy supports this idea.

i would like indian muslims to support this demand as
well. i think that its ok for dissatisfied muslims
in certain parts of india their wish to form small states or city states. why should hindus mind. we have accepted creation of pakistan and bangldesh. this has
been good for muslims in these two states.it has reduced the musim pressure on nonmuslim india.

however we all know that muslims would oppose a similar desire of hindu,s to form their own states.. its the typical muslim centric mindset. they are both communal or secular when it suits them.

as naipaul has said, they give no rights to nonmuslims.
themselves .they are all for minority rights when they live as minorities.in fact they use the minority card to the hilt to demand special favours and benefits.

where are the liberal and rational muslims. where is
a.roy or vinod mehta . i expect that they are laughing up their sleeves, whilst swigging whiskey with the
pakistani embassy guys. ofcource in tea cups, maintaining the fiction that muslims dont drink.

how can it damage india if kashmiri muslims get their
own country, and fly the green flag. its already separated in most ways. how will it hurt muslims in kerala or indians if the moplahs get their own state.

india has been devided on the basis of language. whats
the problem if it is devided once again if it ensure
self rule for muslims in india, and ends the constant
blame game. this has been accepted in many european countries, after much bad blood.

faruki says that muslims will take a 100 to 200 years
to change ther mindset. if i is going to take so long,
why wait. let the parting take place gradually and in
a civilised manner. first step would be to allow
kashmiri muslims to separate. we could have a big party
that day, and part as friends.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 03, 2009 06:23 PM
123
"Pakistan is endlessly regurgitating the politics of Jinnah and the erstwhile Indian Muslim League. While Indian politics moves on, Pakistan’s holds eerily still."

To this one may also add that the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan" has failed to represent, safeguard or even protect the interests of South Asian Muslims for which it was so callously created ... to bestow an asymmetric rather acerbic and disproportionate leverage to Muslims of North India, especially of West Punjab ...

It is this West Pakistani mindset, behaviourism and attitude that denied Bangla bhasha its legitimate status, forced Urdu on Bengalis and Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, a Bengali, to become PM of Pakistan, was the Raison d'être why Bengali Muslims rebelled and seceded from Pakistan in 1971. India had to intervene because of massive refugee problem due to Pakistani army's genocide in Bangladesh.

1971 was only an iteration of 1947 ... the two can not be separated ... only difference being that the Indian Army was not allowed to finish the job in Kashmir as it did in Bangladesh ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Nov 03, 2009 05:17 PM
122
when the MUSLIM PAKI TRIBALS supported by PAKI ARMY invaded Kashmir......

these guys were muslims from jammu district who were veterans of ww2,go through books on this subject,who found when they came back that the weapons they had handed over to the monarchs army ended up in the hands of hindu rightwingers.this is how it started

read articles esp ag noorani ,its said kashmiris never were enamoured to india ,never did accede to india,there was no plebescite precisely because india would have lost it,
you win them over you say ,how really i want to know,militarise the region and saturate it with more than half a million troops for few hundred extremists.and then when they are eliminated still cling thereand continue with the martial law.good heads i win tails you lose.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 03, 2009 03:43 PM
121
to dissatisfied muslim

hindus and nonmuslims even after many hundreds of years of liveing togather in india, are still in a state of conflict. except for one or two muslim bloggers here in this forum the rest express their unreserved hatred of hinduism, and the right wing hindu organiseation.

they fail to accept that their problems could be self
created, and due to their unwillingness to adapt in
societies where they are in a minority. they have also
many problems in societies where they are in a majority. they do not accept this view either.

jinnah after much soul searching decided that the two
communities were better off liveing in separate countries. 99 % of pakistani,s agree with this. they
have made pakistan into a fortress of islam. they have
rejected any connection what so ever with india as it
was before the islamic invasion. they believe that
hindus were a bunch of idol worshippers, and that they
the muslims had brought civilisation to india.

the congress after much futile persuasion accepted the
demand of muslims. the pakistani,s in west pakistan
got what they wanted. soon after 1947 the minorities
were forced out of pakistan or forced to convert to islam. the number of nonmuslims is now about 3 percent.

we all know the situation of muslims in india, who were
unable to leave for pakistan. they went into a sullen
isolation, with their hearts and minds in pakistan and
their daily lives in india.

this is best illustrated by kashmiri muslims. they have
unreserved hate for india. all efforts to win them over have failed. i think these people would be happier being poor in pakistan then be better of in india.i support their desire to leave india. what good
will they bring to us. nothing at all.

regarding the other muslims they show little desire to
get better education, or take advantage of the oppotunities that exist.

in usa the black americans have made significant progress in various fields. they are in the forefront
in athletics, sports, music, films. there are black
men and women in politics and in the corporate sector.
it is noticeable that blacks do not seem to complain
anywhere like the muslims do.

i know of the situation of muslims in britain, mostly
pakistani,s and bangladeshis. they are the ones who
are the lowest level in education, development.

anyone reading british newspapers will reaise how alienated muslims are from english societies. the british nazi party ,is increaseing its share of votes.
the secular parties are on the back foot.

this hurts all immigrants, because pakistani,s and indians look alike.

india perhaps needs a new mr jinnah, who can find
solutions for the muslims. he will have 2 choices.
one will be to modernise muslims without reservations.
it will mean giveing up their various religious fads and symbols.

the other will be to form small areas , moplahs in
kerala, azamgarh in up etc.where muslims can live as they wish . it will end the blame game.the future will
rest in their own hands.

european politicians now say to muslim immigrants

we did not invite you to come and live in our countries. you are welcome to leave if you dont like it here.

some muslims are trying to modernise and change. they
can do it too, if the die hards allow them to do so.

it is a fact however that more muslims prefer their old ways, which will result in a permanent alienation.

this is the unvarnished truth.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 03, 2009 03:32 PM
120
why is it so skewed against kashmiris,guess,because they are muslim.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom

From October 1947, when the MUSLIM PAKI TRIBALS supported by PAKI ARMY invaded Kashmir and King of Kashmir opted to join India, the Indian Army occupied the "Line of Control" in Kashmir. The Indian Army fought PAKI ARMY in 1965 and 1971 along the Line of Control but never ever was used in any Policing tasks in Kashmir. Policing was the responsibility of Kashmir Police similar to all other states of India. It was only in 1989, when PAKI Kashmiris armed with AK47 were pushed in by PAKI ARMY and they started killing "innocent civilians" that Army was used on Policing duties in Kashmir for the first time. So for almost 42 years from 1947 Kashmir was peaceful except the Line of Control where peace was disrupted by Paki Army.

If the people of Kashmir abjure violence and leave the GUN culture Army will be withdrawn from Kashmir, except Line of Control. Army was withdrawn from Punjab and Mizoram when violence abated. Democratic India offers adequate scope for dissenting views unlike Pakistan and so Kashmiris must let go of the AK47 culture for peace to return and Army to be withdrawn.

Bazeed Mirza, if Indian Muslims have been sidelined in India, a country they ruled for more than 800 years upto 1947- Hyderabad, Bhopal, Rampur, Arcot etc etc they are responsible for it especially since much smaller minorities like Christians, Sikhs, Parsees, Jews, Jains, Buddhist, etc etc have prospered in the same period.
Akil
Bangalore, India
Nov 03, 2009 02:38 PM
119
As described by Mr. Hussain the concerns of the state of Pakistan, its anxiety and the analytic frames of its intellectual and media elites should all be referred to the ‘traumatic vivisection of the country in 1971.’ Well, did not the East Pakistanis cried and placed their legitimate demands long before ‘71? What they got in return? The mindset of East Pakistanis was never India-centric. Let’s call a spade a spade. The scenario is same even in today’s perspective and it will remain same for the time yet to come. The entire right wing politics moves through this typical mindset.

Considering such reality, which was also the reality in pre-71 scenario, Mr. Hussain should ask himself, why such ‘traumatic vivisection’ really happened? He should simply have a look at the ‘Time Line of Bangladesh’/Pakistan from 1948. It’s available in the web. East Pakistanis indeed retaliated for their hijacked rights, denouncement of peoples' verdict, insult to their mother tongue, induced poor economic condition compared to their overall contribution, raping of lakhs and for killing millions by West Pakistanis. For the sake of the integrity of Pakistan, the state did not take the responsibility to end the injustice done to one of its vital parts. East Pakistanis were also Pakistanis but always treated as a different entity – culturally and geographically. The intellectuals of West Pakistan and its media, I should say, were definitely under the smoke screen of religion. They were soft on their military atrocity. West Pakistanis could not live with peace loving Bengalis. Injustice, mistrust and haughtiness just blinded them so madly that freedom fight by Bengalis was unavoidable. That was required for the uprightness and self-regard of Bengalis.

A serious, honest and sincere introspection can answer you, Mr. Hussain. It was nowhere in India my friend, dissection will reveal that evil wrong was living only in you.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Nov 03, 2009 11:07 AM
118
vivek--"Their worst fears confirmed by the riots in Mumbai, Gujarat, Bhagalpur and 1984 riots. "

Absolutely right. How this can be termed immature and contrived is beyond me.

dilip--"It looks like this column has been reduced to a debating joust among a few readers pushing their own points of view not relevant to the opinion expressed by Khurram"

Unfortunately this is true and very few posts on most of these forums are relevant to the topic. The rest is just 'time pass' as they say in the local vernacular.
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 03, 2009 10:59 AM
117
1971 or 1947 or any other lens, bottomline is the same - Pakistan's fixation on India is its problem. Its rulers do not want to raise aspirations of its people or guide them towards growth and peace. Unfortunatley India gets distracted managing crap spilling out from this failed state.
Siva
Dallas, USA
Nov 03, 2009 10:53 AM
116
Varun,
>>>> "Muslims asked for partition because they were afraid of living in a Hindu majority country."

Their worst fears confirmed by the riots in Mumbai, Gujarat, Bhagalpur and 1984 riots.
Vivek Chatterjee
Calcutta, India"

They had such amazing foresight didn't they? Seriously, that is so immature and contrived. Hindus have been pushed out of Pakistan, Bangladesh and the Indian state of Kashmir. Moslems have hardly been unoffending angels.
Even if what you say has a tiny morsel of truth in it, you would think that Moslems would be even greater advocates and promoters of secularism and pluralism. But alas, we know that is far from being the case.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 03, 2009 08:47 AM
115
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> of all immigrants in europe , muslims are the ones who are most dissatisfied. of all immigrants.

Not relevant to this discussion.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 03, 2009 07:02 AM
114
It looks like this column has been reduced to a debating joust among a few readers pushing their own points of view not relevant to the opinion expressed by Khurram. Can't you transfer interactive personal debates to another column and keep this open for people who only want to read/comment on Khurram's views?
Yes, muslims in India may genuinely feel deprived but surely they have more opportunity to progress economically in a democratic set up than many of their brethren in Pakistan for whom economic freedom is a dream unless of course they happen to be in the army or in politics or in a business favoured by powers that be!Again, the extreme right views of Hindutva does not sit comfortably with most rationally minded Hindus for whom Hinduism transcends the narrow confines of structured religions.
dilip mahanty
sydney, Australia
Nov 03, 2009 06:20 AM
113
--gayathri--"muslims claim of discrimination in most european countries. "

I wasnt talking about Europe and besides who cares what they think in Europe ...

--"europeans complain of the bigotry and fanaticism of
muslims. "

And it follows that you do too as well since you are a good little doormat.

--"families are large, incomes are low, and this causes them to be behind other communities"

Boil water. Throw in noodles. Done in 2 minutes.
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 03, 2009 06:09 AM
112
faruki

of all immigrants in europe , muslims are the ones who are most dissatisfied. of all immigrants, muslims are
the ones who are most disliked.i am generaliseing but that what most polls reveal.

in view of this, muslims will be best off in their own countries. they do not build secular societies themselves. they build islamic societies.
they want others to buld societies where they are
allowed to keep their peculiar mindset.

one reads about this all the time, and tv
programmes show this as well.

if muslims feel unhappy then the best for them is to ask for further partitions as they have done in bosnia, kosovo,cyprus and lebenon. the situation after
60 years in india is far from satisfactory.

kashmir should be allowed to separate. in every possible way it is a muslim and anti indian state.
efforts to win them over have failed completely.

if there are other special pockets with large muslim populations then they should also be given more autonomy and allowed to run their own affairs.

its pointless for muslims to complain all the time. it is better to find a more sensible and permanent solution.i will remove a lot of hate and stress from the body politic of india.

muslims who want to live in india, should learn to adapt to the fact that they are in a secular state.
they should make efforts to stop being bigoted.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 03, 2009 05:45 AM
111
r

muslims claim of discrimination in most european countries.

europeans complain of the bigotry and fanaticism of
muslims.

the problem has arisen because of muslim presence
in larger numbers. population of muslims has gone up from 30 millions to 160 millions in india. families are
large, incomes are low, and this causes them to be
behind other communities ie christians and sikhs as well

if muslims had not grown so much, they would have done
better. however this seems to be a big problem.

all communities have to help themselves. india is a
poor country, and there is not much to go around.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 03, 2009 03:44 AM
110
secularism have never been issues in the sense that the people are denied these things, or that the Indian state is ideologically opposed to them.......

are you sure,indian state has created a pakistan polity scenario in kashmir,the state is under martial law practically ,where all power is vested into the security establishment,there have been instances even ministers of government were beaten up by soldiers,
during last year amarnath agitation 70 protesters were killed in police firing in kashmir,and how many in hindu majority jammu which witnessed communal rioting,
guess,only one,
why is it so skewed against kashmiris,guess,because they are muslim.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 03, 2009 03:22 AM
109
--"but it is unfair to compare one suffering class to another"

Unfair to whom ?!


--"No one is ignoring the plight of the muslims in our country."

So i suppose its not a problem at all and discussing it is not worth any time and effort. Sweeping it under the carpet is a very effective strategy.


--"You imply that I am either a Hindutva etc"

That wasnt my intention and this isnt about you.


--"I come from the south and have not seen the problems for muslims or christians as they have a reasonable standard of living there and am happy for them about it."

I live in the South and have lived here all my life amidst Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Budhhists, Jains, Jews, Parsees etc. Muslims tend to bear the brunt of Hindu antagonism (especially in recent times) far more than any other religion. The standard of living in the South is generally higher than the North, but the plight of Muslims across the board, thanks to Hindu discrimination, is rampant.

Asking Muslims to stand up for themselves as you have reeks of abject disengagement and apathy. As a society WE as a people need to stand up for the oppressed. Maybe you should try and read Martin Luther Kings speeches !!
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 03, 2009 02:46 AM
108
Anwar,
"
Maha,

>> Partitioning India was the best thing that BRITISH did for Indians.

Even so, a good dose of reality may make it possible for us etc etc."


?? I did not write it. Anyway I do not necessarily disagree with the original poster.
Maha
NJ, United States
Nov 03, 2009 01:59 AM
107
Varun,

>>>> "Muslims asked for partition because they were afraid of living in a Hindu majority country."
>> That shows a very weak, small and insecure mentality.

That shows an immature and small-minded rush to judgement!
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 03, 2009 01:55 AM
106
Kashmir and Bangladesh are two different things. In Kashmir, democracy, pluralism and secularism have never been issues in the sense that the people are denied these things, or that the Indian state is ideologically opposed to them. Far from it, whatever messiness and inadequacies transpire. Pakistan is *actively* anti-secular and anti-pluralist, and on top of that has been under military rule or military oligarchy most of its existence.
One very legitimate issue in Kashmir is underdevelopment, but that's as much a problem in Bihar, UP and Orissa, as in Kashmir.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 03, 2009 01:52 AM
105
Maha,

>> Partitioning India was the best thing that BRITISH did for Indians.

Even so, a good dose of reality may make it possible for us to at least envision a future in which the subcontinent is a more civilized place with trade, cultural exchanges and cricket matches becoming the major transactional bases.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 03, 2009 01:14 AM
104
R "Using Pakistan as a reference point is beyond ridiculous. This train of thought is rampant amongst Hindutvadis and their supporters, when it comes to the plight of Muslims in our country."

No one is ignoring the plight of the muslims in our country. It is as important as the plight of any group of people that suffers. You imply that I am either a Hindutva etc. Instead of hand waving, have you anything solid to go on? For one, I do not either hate the muslims or want them to have problems in our India. Sure, every Muslim is an Indian and needs all the rights of an Indian. I want complete rights for all minorities, religious and otherwise. I do not even believe in religion or god and hence cannot be a Hindu, Muslim etc. I come from the south and have not seen the problems for muslims or christians as they have a reasonable standard of living there and am happy for them about it. Granted that the problem does exist in India and no one is wishing it away. However, it is no comparison to that of the blacks in US. For instance, the blacks in US during WW2 who were part of the army were given segregated blood. I do not think that Indian army was ever into such things. Until 1960s, the blacks were terrorized to prevent them from voting. The list goes on. Granted that the muslims in India suffer, but it is unfair to compare one suffering class to another, each has a different problem.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Nov 03, 2009 01:11 AM
103
OK, revert back to the article. Who ever broke the Gordian knot ruled Asia, as the legend proved by Alexander. Indo-Pak bind, Gordian knot, must be broken, and I wish India breaks that knot. I mean literally breaking.

I ave always held the following opinion:

(1) Kasmir gives an opportunity to keep our Amy trained and fit to fight Chinese one day, thanks to Pukistan.
(2) Kasmir will be the cause of the demise of a temporary eruption of an Indian region which apologetically existed as a nation for less than a century.
(3) It is Pukis themselves who will burn till ashes with their hatred for India, no fight from India will be required.
(4) Though the intentions are otherwise, Pukistani Armed forces act as Indian proxy in destructing their own country.
AMEN
M. Srinivasulu
Hyderabad, India
Nov 03, 2009 12:57 AM
102
Except for the inane statements in the fisrt paragraph, this article gives excellent two cents worth opinion of a Pakistani on Indian hypocrisy

>> two ends of a thread tied in a fantastic Gordian knot;
>> And how the love grows!
>> But behind this veil, Pakistan has always been internal to Indian politics.
>> are well-versed in the nuances of Pakistani society

Bull. almost no one gives a f*ck about pakistan in our country except for the extreme right and ruling brhaminical fascists. For these people, pakistan is a necessary evil to perpetuate their charade. For every one else it is a everyday struggle for existence that they are interested in. Pakistan blimps in our radars only through some terrorist incidences and of course during cricket encounters.

Second of all, the three Indian points of view that author offers is the modus-operandi of Indian rulers to control the thought process of the foolish believers. It is not the other way around as the authors would want us to believe. For any real changes to happen in Indian responses, Pakistan has shows itself to mean well towards Indian nation, pakistan should be willing to drop the Kashmir issue and accept the possibility of becoming a client state to India.
Indian rulers will not stop from cutting pakistan into sizes in all possible ways unless they feel secure over their hegemony in South Asia. It is norm of the game in South Asia. So any hope for Indo-Pak reconciliation is simply misplaced since in diplomacy, every quid-pro-quo has a solid and tangible material value, appearances and moral values can be easily changed with the help of complicit and complaint opinion-making sections of the polity once material benefit is accrued by the blood-thirsty brahmin rulers.

Anyways, kudos for reminding Indians about the similarity of Bangladesh and Kashmir.
Senthamarai
Chennai, India
Nov 03, 2009 12:49 AM
101
Pakistan's official text books have references like hindu baniya hates muslims.. kids served this kind of $hit know nothing but to hate..
Anil Kumar
Toronto, Canada
Nov 03, 2009 12:47 AM
100
Can you please explain 1948 war Katch war and 1965 war.. There was no vivisection of 1971 in those days.> Fact is pakistan's existance is baded on hatred for india and only excuses change leitmotif hatred remains as an universal constant across the twist and turns of history
Anil Kumar
Toronto, Canada
Nov 03, 2009 12:45 AM
99
prakash--"As long as you fight for it like Martin Luther King, it will happen."

This sounds patronizing to say the least. We never fail to identify India with a whole slew of adjectives from largest democracy to secular to tolerant blah, blah, blah ... but none of these traits are inherent in ANY society without constant attention and action. We cannot claim the symptoms exist in all societies and use it as an excuse to essentially do nothing.

Using Pakistan as a reference point is beyond ridiculous. This train of thought is rampant amongst Hindutvadis and their supporters, when it comes to the plight of Muslims in our country.

The voices of Indian Muslims are instantaneously shut down by comparisons to Pakistan and other such absurd factoids.

An Indian Muslim is never permitted to be Indian or Muslim. Why is that ??
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 03, 2009 12:22 AM
98
Bazeed-- "why should i ,the pakistanis should and will do it, the only identity i have here is that i am an indian muslim,why should i care."

Bazeed you are right on all counts and i feel for you. Most Hindutvas and their supporters are absolutely incapable of accepting Indian Muslims as Indians first. This has to do with thier inherent fundamentalist mindset and bias. You tend to find this a lot amongst North Indians (at the risk of generalizing). I was born Hindu but grew up in Bangalore amongst all religions (mostly Muslim) and religion was NEVER considered a divisive factor till the early 90's.

--",is it because dravidians are more accomodating and civilised than north indians,given their centuries old contact with outside world unlike north indians,"
"

The Southern States tend to be far more accepting of all religions. This is rooted in history (ancient and modern). Hinduism itself is a newcomer to the South (earlier than Islam and Christianity). The Southern ethos is far less fundamentalist in its outlook. This is my opinion and im sure it will be trashed by any number of Hindutvadis lurking on these forums.

--prakash--"Anyway, my point is that muslims are not treated like blacks in India,"

Actually they are treated worse. The Human Development Index of Muslim populations in India is abysmal. Ignoring the problem and pretending it doesnt exist will not make it go away. Muslims on an 'average' do worse than other castes and classes and Muslims of lower classes are subjected to the double-whammy of religion and caste.
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 03, 2009 12:15 AM
97
states are growing with urbanization. As more people move to this, the prejudices will reduce

i know and have experienced it,you can feel the change.
what about the establishment.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 03, 2009 12:06 AM
96
Bazeed, "he started with a vision for india first,what happened to that,is india secular/no,it isnt.maybe the newer generations are"

If you see the current day India, it is slowly moving towards this. Sure, it is only at the city level. However, no one has any problem with hiring anyone of any religion/group in a place. My suspicion is that this will improve with education. Sure, there will always be people with bias. However, this will reduce with time. The states are growing with urbanization. As more people move to this, the prejudices will reduce. It will take a long time for this to recede in the rural areas.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Nov 02, 2009 11:51 PM
95
move to a city/state that would be reasonable for you....

exactly,thats where i am now.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 02, 2009 11:49 PM
94
Bazeed, "you know something called affirmative action"

That is an option too. It does help, I will never deny it. Go for it, I do not have any problem with it.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Nov 02, 2009 11:46 PM
93
Bazeed, "the only identity i have here is that i am an indian muslim,why should i care"

Fair enough, I have a couple of suggestions for you. First fight for your rights in the place you live in, similar to any person/group that does not have fair share. As long as you fight for it like Martin Luther King, it will happen. If that does not work, move to a city/state that would be reasonable for you. A country like India with its population will take a while for a certain minimum for its citizens. As the minimum goes up, people will demand more (as they should). If you see France, there are enough who still have grievances, that is part of being human.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Nov 02, 2009 11:43 PM
92
Moderator,

Have you checked the link before deleting it? That's the history in a brief, very much relevant to this particular article with no abuse, disturbing elements or communal hatred.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Nov 02, 2009 11:43 PM
91
Jinnah with a vision that it will be religion free at state level, see where it is now....

he started with a vision for india first,what happened to that,is india secular/no,it isnt.maybe the newer generations are.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 02, 2009 11:41 PM
90
The fact that we are a democracy would ensure that this minimum will be achieved with time and prosperity. As the state has improved economy, the minimum will keep improving. ......

thats a very oft quoted lame excuse,you know something called affirmative action,thats what is needed.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 02, 2009 11:38 PM
89
Why dont you look at try to correct it. ..

why should i ,the pakistanis should and will do it,
the only identity i have here is that i am an indian muslim,why should i care.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 02, 2009 11:32 PM
88
"not on basis of caste and religion.just as individual citizens.
have you thought why muslims got increasingly targeted esp starting 90s,"

If you ask a person who is an SC, he would say that he was targeted. The problem is that every person of one class would feel that he was targeted. He would probably be right. I am more positive about this than a lot of people, many would say that I am not realistic. The fact that we are a democracy would ensure that this minimum will be achieved with time and prosperity. As the state has improved economy, the minimum will keep improving. However, I must admit that the differences between the better and worse will persist in any country/state.

Look at Pakistan, a muslim state. If you ask a person of any state that is not Punjab, he would feel that he is mistreated. Why dont you look at try to correct it. After all, it is a muslim state and must provide for all its citizens. The average there is far lower than in India. I do not think that any muslim from Gujarat, with all of its problems would like to move to Quetta. Pakistan was created by Jinnah with a vision that it will be religion free at state level, see where it is now. Did you ask yourself why this is the case?
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Nov 02, 2009 11:22 PM
87
no,the problem is somrthing else.not having a vision.one has to be uplifted as a citizen and considered such.
not on basis of caste and religion.just as individual citizens.
have you thought why muslims got increasingly targeted esp starting 90s,it was nothing to do with historical wrongs and iconoclam,it was petty politicking post mandal,to unite the hindu vote to counter caste based assertion which would fragmented any chances of bjp to come to power,so they invented the other,.muslims.
and you know what happened after.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 02, 2009 11:13 PM
86
Muslims have always had success in film industry, but it is the average that matters, not the exception. Sure, a lot of states in India have muslims not upto the level of the average. But that is the case for a lot of people, if you go to a state like UP, there are a lot of people who are below the level. The state must take a lot of trouble to have a certain minimum. The main reason for this is the political class being simplistic in trying to achieve this goal. This is a two way mechanism. People like Mayawati get into power and do not have a vision of what they want for their state. Remember that this is state with the highest population. She has no hatred towards people of any religion, however, she does not have the vision for achievement. Hence the problem persists. It is unfortunate and leads to problems for all people of the state.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Nov 02, 2009 11:04 PM
85
Bazeed, "why only south india,why nowhere else?
,is it because dravidians are more accomodating and civilised than north indians,given their centuries old contact with outside world unlike north indians,"

I do not have an answer for that, only theories. Anyway, my point is that muslims are not treated like blacks in India, I gave a counter example to that. So, do not make such a statement without proof. You can visit one of these states to see this for yourself, you do not have to believe me.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Nov 02, 2009 10:49 PM
84
"and why stop at tamil nad,whats great what muslims do there,lot of leather tannneries and exports."

You are wrong. That was their position in the past. The state has become very manufacturing based and a lot of the people in the state have gone into it. The reason is that muslims of the next generation are city based and have high training. So, they would naturally fit in that environment. You are not looking at the main thing you pointed, no one looks down on them as though they are blacks in the US. So, do not keep changing the point you made.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Nov 02, 2009 10:36 PM
83
Bazeed "what about todays india where 170 million muslims are what blacks are in america,marginalised and poor and increasingly victimised over decades"

You need to do more research, there are many states in India where the muslims are doing quite well. If you see Kerala and Tamil Nadu, the muslims have a higher quality of living than the average of the state, they have higher literacy and the states have had no significant religious problems. In fact, a reporter from Dawn newspaper came to look at the state and was pleasantly surprised. You can go to the Dawn website and look this up. It removes the assumption that muslims cannot ever do well in India. So, take your learning of India, throw it into the trash can and start over.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Nov 02, 2009 10:17 PM
82
"Muslims asked for partition because they were afraid of living in a Hindu majority country."

That shows a very weak, small and insecure mentality. It's not as if the Moslems were in a tiny minority like Parsees, Jews, Jains and Buddhists. As others have said, it's perhaps all for the best that so many Moslems with that alternatively weak and belligerent mentality were given a separate country. Who needs them?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 02, 2009 09:58 PM
81
History of Islam and its Rulers in India are the biggest impedements in Union of both the races....

wrong again,these nazi factoids arent going to be converted to truth even if you repeat them,
what about todays india where 170 million muslims are what blacks are in america,marginalised and poor and increasingly victimised over decades,
do you think thats the way to unification.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 02, 2009 09:52 PM
80
But four generations of Pakistanies have been brought up on hate India and hate Hindus diet.The same being equally reciprocated by us too.....

no you are off tangent,first lets get things straight.i think you go through jaswant singhs book on jinnah,get your facts right.
the problem is nehru and patels vision was that british had broken the chain of muslim rule and now india could be a hindu kingdom again,if they would have to pay a price in territory they would accede to it,
71 was a watershed,india did amputate pakistan in a naive belief that pakistan wouldnt be in a position to retaliate,they have and very brutally,
within this there is a partition generation, a lot of north indians have been brought up to be anti-muslim not just anti pakistan,people who clapped when pogroms like gujarat 2002 happened,
what was nazi madness,it was something similar.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 02, 2009 09:20 PM
79
The writer goes out of his way to downplay the ideological and philosophical differences between India and Pakistan. It is those differences that cause Pakistan to be psychotically hostile to India. As for 1971, no one seriously believes that before then, Pakistan was friendly and totally un-obsessed with India. What a joke. They were, if anything, more hostile and belligerent between 1947-1971, than after.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 02, 2009 09:14 PM
78
Bajeed
This is not Nationalists Jingoism. It is War within Islam .It is fight between the Islamic Pak State and the hardliner Islam.

Terror and that too the religeous Terror is totally different ball game and can't be compared with WW II .

Are you sure that there is any chance of South Asian Union between Hindus and Muslims who have been polarised for the Centuries ? History of Islam and its Rulers in India are the biggest impedements in Union of both the races.

WW II was the madness of Hitler. But four generations of Pakistanies have been brought up on hate India and hate Hindus diet.The same being equally reciprocated by us too.

That is Khurram's kite flying is pleasent to read but not practical to achieve.
A KUMAR
MUMBAI, India
Nov 02, 2009 08:48 PM
77
Why Muslims are committing harakari ? They are killing each other.....

this isnt anything to gloat over,the europeans did that 60 years ago 75 million people dead in world war 2,
its just the faultlines of instability just move on from region to region from time to time,today the subcontinent and middle east,
60 years after the insanity of world war 2,you have european union and common market.they opted for social democracy to replace nationalist jingoism,which so afflicts the east now,and everything fell into place,no wars nothing.
foreign intervention and neo imperialism too has a big role to play,
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 02, 2009 08:44 PM
76
"Partitioning India was the best thing that BRITISH did for Indians. Pakistan and Bangladesh can remain separate- we wish them all the best but certainly do NOT want them back."

I totally agree. I would add that the flag burning Kashmiris can go and join their breathen in Pakistan as well.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 02, 2009 08:29 PM
75
"they are destroying pakistan from within and the western forces
who are mulling ways to get out at this time,
after that what?
give it a thought,"

Bazeed Mirza

Why Muslims are committing harakari ? They are killing each other .They did it in 1971 too .

Why Bazeed why ?
A KUMAR
MUMBAI, India
Nov 02, 2009 08:26 PM
74
Muslims asked for partition because they were afraid of living in a Hindu majority country. Once they realize that they should be even more afraid of a Muslim majority country they may want to come back.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States

Thank you for the suggestion but NO THANK YOU. Partitioning India was the best thing that BRITISH did for Indians. Pakistan and Bangladesh can remain separate- we wish them all the best but certainly do NOT want them back.
Akil
Bangalore, India
Nov 02, 2009 08:24 PM
73
Anoher blast in Lahore an hour back .Earlier one blast tok place in Pindi around 10.40 hrs.
A KUMAR
MUMBAI, India
Nov 02, 2009 08:10 PM
72
mail suggests that whilst pakistan has failed in
its conflicts with india, the joint afghan /pakistan
alliance will knock india out....

i havent said anything like that,its just the situation in indias neighbourhood is precarious,
stephen cohen isnt an authority with a final word,he has written seminal books on pak army,he for your info is an armchair academic.not a political philosopher

300 years ago,pashtuns were destroyed as a cohesive power by nadir shah,within a few years after his death they attacked iran and captured isfahan,on the other side you must be knowing what they did at panipat in 1761,rest what happened to british in 1842 and russians after 1979,they are destroying pakistan from within and the western forces
who are mulling ways to get out at this time,
after that what?
give it a thought,
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 02, 2009 07:21 PM
71
Khurram is novice and perhaps does not know the Indo-Pak-Islamic Terror equation.Otherwise he would have not stuck up in 1947 /1971 equation .

It is 2009 which has thrown up new serious challenges for the Sub Continent.

Media is blaring that another 26/11 like attack is imminent.The targets are Mumbai,Banglore Calcuta .Attackers will move in either by Sea or Nepal or Bangladesh.This is the thid Warning in last 8 weeks.

Chidambram has threatned that 26/11 was the last after which Pak got away.This time there will be serious Indian response .

I honestly doubt India will respond except wailing in the World Forums.Once Congress leaders' tears ( crocodile ?) exhaust they will cool off.In any case Congress firmly is firmly placed in Chair after the Elections where is need for it to take some drastic action .

Electrorate has given their decision and they will face the consequences .Congress has nothing to loose for another 5 years.

We are doomed to live another and many more night- mares.We deserve them too!!!
A KUMAR
MUMBAI, India
Nov 02, 2009 03:36 PM
70
,so stop bragging about the afghan empire.
devi,

i am not bragging about anything,these are possible scenarios which are being discussed in academic circles everywhere.
your uneducated response indicates ignorance of history.
you could start by reading ahmed rashid book on taliban,which has a good introduction to the regions history.
i am recommending rashid,because he belongs to the region and unlike most of indian media people who are a bollywood type dramatising news and views,is well grounded in politics of the region and has a past,he is rumoured to have been a leftist guerilla in 1970s and has fought the pakistan army in balochistan.

are you in a delusion that chinese will ever allow india to develop as a rival or enter their spheres of influence,takh to any chinese academic and they will tell you.
the chinese now have heavy investments in PoK,do you really think they will just build roads there.
try thinking for once.
which world are you living in,are you even aware of the ramifications,
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 02, 2009 02:09 PM
69
"This also means a majority Muslim group/population rejecting a islamic state in favor of secular democracy. This will have far reaching implications/consequences across the world.'

Kumar's Haseen Khawbs !
happy ram ambalvi
Ambala Cantt, India
Nov 02, 2009 02:04 PM
68
Roger Mangat,

>> In reuniting the subcontinent, we can reasonably see/create one of the most pluralistic society & one of most powerful states

The very thought will be a nightmare to violent religious extremists for whom a communal division is their bread and butter. This also means a majority Muslim group/population rejecting a islamic state in favor of secular democracy. This will have far reaching implications/consequences across the world.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Nov 02, 2009 12:43 PM
67
Roger Mangat,

>> In reuniting the subcontinent,we can reasonably see/create one of the most pluralistic society & one of most powerful states.

Muslims asked for partition because they were afraid of living in a Hindu majority country. Once they realize that they should be even more afraid of a Muslim majority country they may want to come back.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 02, 2009 10:39 AM
66
--mangat--"In reuniting the subcontinent,we can reasonably see/create one of the most pluralistic society & one of most powerful states stretching from the hindukush to Naga hills & from the pamir plateu to kanyakumari."

I totally agree with you and hopefully one day that would happen. I give the Hindutvas a few more years before they become completely insignificant. Anything is possible.
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 02, 2009 09:51 AM
65
The occupation of Afghanistan by USSR is more relevant reason for the "utter chaos" in present day AFPAK than the defeat in the 1971 Bangladesh war. The situation would not have degenerated to such a stage in AFPAK, had PAKI ARMY withdrawn their support the ISLAMIC FANATICS after evicting USSR from Afghanistan. Pakistan continued to believe that religion- ISLAM - will be a binding force to control the region, although that concept had already been disproved in Bangladesh.

The Author by linking the violence in present day Pakistan to 1971 defeat in Bangladesh is trying to hold India also partially responsible for what is happening in AFPAK. The violence in AFPAK has more to do with the creation of Pakistan on religious grounds in 1947 and the perception in Pakistan that being the first country to be carved out on religious lines, it holds a privileged position amongst MUSLIMS and can control AFPAK using the religion.
Akil
Bangalore, India
Nov 02, 2009 08:41 AM
64
East Pakistan and West paksitan was an unnatural union of different people. One may say the same thing about India also. India is holding together due to democracy. Where as, in the case of Pakistan, it is Punjab that is dominating over other provinces. When any Bangladeshi, I have met, speaks about 1971, he never says, Pakistan army, but always refers it as "PUNJAB ARMY". These Paki Panjabis behave as if the whole of pakistan is meant for them and this is the one creating problem. If pakistan had a democratic system similar to India, I think 1971 would not have happend. Blaming India, or feeling hurt, for 1971 is of no use. If the same punjab centric mentality continues, pakistan will some day loose the other provinces also, irrespective of whether India interferes or not.
vidyadhar Madhusudan
Bangalore, India
Nov 02, 2009 07:59 AM
63
Storm in Jaipur-------who wants pakistani muslims back,well I do & not for the emotional reason that u think.In reuniting the subcontinent,we can reasonably see/create one of the most pluralistic society & one of most powerful states stretching from the hindukush to Naga hills & from the pamir plateu to kanyakumari.It will be one of the most magnificent of the projects of modern times,as for the criminal elements donot worry they can be dealt with/according to the law.Imagine for the first time writ of NewDelhi, being applied to such a vast & glorius land.
Roger Mangat
merced-california, United States
Nov 02, 2009 06:11 AM
62
Khurram has not taken certain facts into consideration during the 1971 conflict.
1) While he agrees that genocide took place he glosses over the fact that millions, especially the intelligentia ,were butchered by the Pakistan army. Survivors poured over the border to India with just clothes on their backs and many with their limbs hacked off.Calcutta bore the brunt of this influx because of familiarity of language and culture. It became a city of slums overnight because of the teeming millions.
2. India had no intention of dismembering Pakistan but to create a situation whereby the refugees would return back and not continue to draw on its meagre resources.
3. With over 93,000 Pak soldiers surrendering and contained in Bangladesh, there was no resistance to Indian army advances in Pakistan itself. Indian army could have easily marched into key cities without much resistance and used this occupation to settle the Kashmir issue. But it did not. It withdrew unilaterally at Mrs Gandhi's behest.
3.Pakistan's problem is that it is always prepared to blame somebody else for their ills and not look within.
4. If it had negotiated some terms, amicably, with the then East Pakistan instead of crushing its genuine grievances there would have been no reason for people fleeing desperately into the neighbours' territory.
5. Baluchistan is also getting similar step motherly treatment, inspite of its natural resources. The disquiet there stems from people's grievances not being addressed. POK's case is also the same.If it cannot handle these problems ,for whatever reasons, how can it blame others?
6. Pakistan is totally "Indiacentric". It is blinded by the need to "teach India a lesson" and every act of the Government is geared towards this. It is a very negative attitude to adopt.
7. India has been working on economic progress and while it is concerned about Pakistan's overt and covert acts, it is not Pakistan focussed.
8. Indians do not want a broken,dysfunctional Pakistan in their neighbourhood as it will create greater problems for them.
9. Pakistan should stop the growth of terrorism from its soil for its own existence. The days of distinguishing between a "good terrorist" and a "bad terrorist" is long gone. A terrorist has no allegiance but purely blood lust. A Frankenstein has been created
and this monster has just turned on its creator!
Khurram has to dive deeper to look at the real reasons!
dilip mahanty
sydney, Australia
Nov 01, 2009 11:41 PM
61
khurram is right when he says that 71 is the right lens to understand his country,given the neurotic quest of its establishment post 71 to find a strategic depth first in Afghanistan and by pushing frontlines of conflict deep into india first in punjab and then kashmir.not to mention the toll on innocent citizens in umpteenth places.
.The pakistani establishment used them as cannon fodder.no matter the devastating consequences this has had for the sikhs ,pashtuns and kashmiris
now given the tiger they were riding has mauled them,
poetic justice,lets wait
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 01, 2009 11:23 PM
60
Isn't it a collective nature of Muslims NOT to trust Non-Muslims no matter how good they are for them....

you are sadly mistaken having these obtuse thoughts,they have and they can, like they have for a millenia,dont delude yourself as representative of the indian or the hindu psyche.

what does jaswant singhs book on jinnah propound.something very opposite to your views anyway?
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 01, 2009 11:18 PM
59
Indian & Bangladeshi Muslims will die, and even Chinese will die in their millions...

so much for your insane apocalyptic thoughts
any idea that chinese dont even consider india in their league,practical people i should say.they think of themselves in the superpower league .
have you given a thought to an alternate scenario.what if the troubles in pakistan are the birth pangs of a new afghan empire,sure pakistan would not exist,but these guys would knock on indias doors like they did 300 years ago.then what.
you will be hyperbolic like a lot of our stupid media guys.
Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Nov 01, 2009 10:10 PM
58
R:

""They still cannot ... but you cant see that.""

Isn't it a collective nature of Muslims NOT to trust Non-Muslims no matter how good they are for them. Or may be I forgot that Muslims can expect justice only in the holly land of Saudi Arabia or in the Afghanistan under Taliban rule?
Storm
Jaipur, India
Nov 01, 2009 09:47 PM
57
---"the belief that INDIAN MUSLIMS can NOT expect justice in a HINDU majority INDIA. "

They still cannot ... but you cant see that.

--"The HINDUS did NOT have a problem with the MUSLIMS but the MUSLIMS had problems co-existing with HINDUS"

Repeating this mantra doesnt make it true except in your own head. This is blatant false propaganda by resident Chaddies.
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 01, 2009 09:42 PM
56
happyram--"Honestly there is no way Pakistan control its self generated Terrorists.India should prepare for the FINAL WAR !"

Sure ... and im assuming you and your family would move to the frontier and prepare to fight ? If not please give the war-cry a rest. Some of us love our lives and are not ready to die for Hinduism !!!
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 01, 2009 09:16 PM
55
Roger:

""India should wait patiently that piece of land will come back to its origins alongwith so called bangladesh""

Oh No!! We are certainly better off without them. Who wants them to India? I don't. Do you?

Do you want Hakkimullah Mahsud unleashing his mayhem across India? Do you want the ilk of Hafeez Sayeed roaming around Aligarh, Meerut, Heyderabad and other Muslim dominating areas to preach hatred against infidels? Do you want Taliban creating havoc in Indian Metros for their demand of Sharia? Do you want Pakistani Jihadi merchants leading Muslim mob after Friday Namaz to attack on Hindus?

Emotionalism should not diminish one's ability to see things in perspective of reality.

In last one thousand years there are TWO best things happened in sub continent which laid the strong foundation for the country what we call today as India.

1. Arrival of British in Indian sub-continent 16th
century
2. Immensely painful partition of India.
Storm
Jaipur, India
Nov 01, 2009 09:13 PM
54
It is NOT 1947, NOR is it 1971- PAKISTAN was born out of "negative energy"- the belief that INDIAN MUSLIMS can NOT expect justice in a HINDU majority INDIA. The HINDUS did NOT have a problem with the MUSLIMS but the MUSLIMS had problems co-existing with HINDUS in India- corollary is that more "FANATIC MUSLIMS" will have difficulty in co-existing with moderate MUSLIMs in PAK. The ISLAMIC fanaticism in PAK kept retracting till it reached 632AD resulting in the present state in PAKISTAN- blast schools, kill SHIAS and everyone opposing the "FANATIC"- a stage when the fanatic decides what is TRUE ISLAM.

Pakistan would have reached the present stage of "utter chaos" without 1947, 1965, 1971 and Kargil because of the NEGATIVE ENERGY it has been generating from the day it was formed- 14 August 1947. While India had it's constitution adopted by 26 January 1950, PAKIS could NOT decide on one till 1959 and then GENERAL AYUB KHAN decided that PAKI politicians were nincompoops. 1971 did NOT happen till then.

Democracy is unsuitable for MUSLIM MAJORITY countries with a few exceptions to prove the rule. There is hardly a true democracy even in the GULF ARAB STATES which claim inheritance of ARAB ISLAMIC ideals of DEMOCRATICALLY electing CALIPH after death of the Prophet(PBUH) .
Akil
Bangalore, India
Nov 01, 2009 08:49 PM
53
More proof that UPA is run by jokers.

"Taking a tough stance, Home Minister P Chidambaram has warned Pakistan against meddling in India's affairs and said any more terror attack from that country will be retaliated "very strongly".

How many times has this been said in the past? And how has the govt reacted to the last year terror attack? I mean, has any retaliation been done for that attack??

More comical is the news report"Taking a tough stance". BS.

The only strong retaliation would be a more strongly worded statement. They will dive deeply into a thesaurus to find strong adjectives. Retaliation? Going after the culprits? My Foot.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 01, 2009 08:45 PM
52
Before understanding Pakistan, can someone provide a translation to understand this article?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 01, 2009 07:21 PM
51
The media report on Clinton's advice to Pakistanis of all kinds seem quite on the mark - take responsibility and fix your internal issues - stop playing the victim, blaming others and looking for sympathy - Kashmir isn't going to solve your problems. Sometimes it is better to take advice of a 3rd party who doesn't care - their understanding of you might be far better than what you give them credit for.
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Nov 01, 2009 04:45 PM
50
LALIT JI

I agree with you .You have seen Partition like many of us.You know that Pakistan went on from one folly to another.Hate India and Hindus,its nearness to West and Pakistani Punjabies' choking grip on Pak Army and Civil Services .The result is before all of us.

If Pakistan survies through the current turmoil then it will b ebette rfor the humanity otherwise there will be Cultural Wars and strife World over.Sinc ethis will b e War of Nukes Billions will be decimated .India too will suffer badly being the whipping Nation of Islamists .
happy ram ambalvi
Ambala Cantt, India
Nov 01, 2009 04:35 PM
49
"True, but you yourself are stuck in 1947, as you have repeatedly indicated"

Anwar bhai


In 1947 Indian Society went through serious turmoil.First time in History of the Sub Continent Muslims parted company from their Mother Land on basis of non compatibilty of the two races.In our thousand plus 300 years History we never divided India .And that to on basis of Religeons .We never parted company under trynical Muslim an d Mughal Rules though Hindus were no better than serfs .Still w e co-existed .
It is very difficult to erase 1947 from our minds and the History .

1971 was the end of subjugation of Bangla Race from the vice like grip of Paki Punjabies.And Freedom for the Bangal Deshies.Costs paid by them are known an d

2009 is the year when Pathans,Balochies .Sindhies are struggling to get rid of Pak Punjabies' subjugation.But in between Talibans and Queda have entered.Both want to capture Islamic Bomb and Pakistan itself.Hence the fight for survival of Pakstan has become more grim .

There fore for Pakistanies 2009 is now vital as the very existence of Jinnah's Pakistan is under serious threat.

Hussain should understand that not 1971 but 2009 is vital for Pakistan.

MISFORTUNE OF THE SUB CONTINENT IS THAT PAKISTAN DUE ITS FOOLISH POLICY OF FIGHTING TERROR IN WEST AND SPREADING TERROR IN EAST IS LOOSING THE WAR AGAINST THE ISLAMISTS .INDIA TOO WILL SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF PAK FOLLY OF THIS FOLLY !
happy ram ambalvi
Ambala Cantt, India
Nov 01, 2009 12:36 PM
48
The problem lies in the fact that irrespective of what ordinary Pakistanis or Indians tend to think of each other, the political representatives of the Indian State (Congress and BJP being remarkably similar in their policies foreign or otherwise) ... and the military representatives of the Pakistani State are focussed on annihilating each other.

Ive met dozens of Pakistanis of different stripes in my travels and almost universally across the board they have been nothing but friendly and curious about India. The same goes for the newer and younger generation of Indians (whose materialistic fixation thankfully refocuses their energies away from traditional Pak bashing).

Maybe we should allow the old fogies in both countries to die a natural death and allow the newer generation to build real relationships.
R
Bangalore, India
Nov 01, 2009 07:00 AM
47
it's time india/ indians moved on beyond pakistan.
our existence depends on how we preserve the idea of india, not on pakistan.
unfortunately pakistan's existence depends only on it's hatred for india/the idea of india.
no wonder it remains in a confused state when it comes to it's identity.
countries are formed not on the basis of religious /ethinic identities, but through a commonality of cultural identities.
I disagree with one of our friends who has written that it is india which is vulnerable to break u.
yes, we have problems, but we have the unique ability to shun extremisms of different kinds and bring the pendulum to rest at the centre.
it is our diversity that bings tolrance and acceptance of different beliefs and languages and cultures.
tht is why INDIA AND THE IDEA OF INDIA ROCKS.
priya
delhi, India
Nov 01, 2009 04:20 AM
46
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> you have also said some mean things about your community.

I have mentioned your defective comprehension before, but it is not relevant to this discussion.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 01, 2009 02:30 AM
45
faruki

you have also said some mean things about your community.

extremists have taken over the fortress of islam.

due to inherent restraints it is difficult to reform
islam, and it will take 100 or 200 years for muslims
to make meaningful reforms.

muslims produce a few professionals and the rest drive cycle rick shaws.

they are also very bigoted.

we have very similar opinions.

touche
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 01, 2009 02:14 AM
44
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> naipaul, aatish taseer, cowasjee ......m.j.akbar speak disparageingly of your community.

As soon as you are shown up to be an empty-headed windbag, you start dropping names! You are pathetic!
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 01, 2009 01:50 AM
43
faruki

naipaul, aatish taseer, cowasjee, and many others
like them will agree on my view on indian muslims.

you, m.j.akbar speak disparageingly of your community.

i just confirm what you have frequently said.

and is it not right.

1947 showed the fanatical hatred of muslims for hindus,
and this is now also evident in pakistan today.

1971 showed how the taller, stronger pakistani,s treated their smaller darker bongo muslim brothers.
pure and simple racism.

you lack the courage to face truth.

recently 2 paki,s have been arrested for planning an attack on kurt westergaard the dainsh catoonist .

shows a brain dead fanatical mentality, and utter
stupidity. both will be sent to prison for 15 years.
i suppose you will be running around provideing home food for them, and claim that they have been framed.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 01, 2009 01:20 AM
42
Read the writeup and the opinions. Very revealing specially what readers have written. Partition and India-Pakistan conflict has been the subject of my documentary 'Beyond Partition' and now is the subject of my feature film screenplay in the making.

I think the key lies in Pakistan's hands (the rulers/army). Will Pakistan move on?

Lalit Mohan Joshi
London
LALIT MOHAN JOSHI
London, U.K.
Nov 01, 2009 01:04 AM
41
Pakistan is neither a proud nation nor a country,it is a failed state due to their own actions.If there were no american or western aid it would cease to exist as a state,it has already ceased to exist as a civilised society.India should wait patiently that piece of land will come back to its origins alongwith so called bangladesh.
Roger Mangat
merced-california, United States
Nov 01, 2009 12:55 AM
40
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> this defined the mentality of indian muslims.

You get back into your empty-headed anti-Muslim hate-pracharak mode at the drop of a hat! Yours is an incurable disease.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 01, 2009 12:47 AM
39
happy ram

1947 was the year when indian muslims decided to demand
a separate state. about 85 percent voted for it.

this defined the mentality of indian muslims, though later on those muslims who stayed behind for various reasons tried to distance themselves from this idea.
i dont believe that these muslims have had a change of heart.

1971 proved that the pakistani,s from the western states were not just fanatic muslims, but also had
a racist bias against the small dark bengali muslims.

the same happens in other muslim states. in gulf states
the arabs look down on the pakistani,s and bangladeshi,s. even indians usually hindus are more
respected, though not so much as european expatriats.

i suggest a book called " stranger in history a journey
in muslim lands by aatish taseer. he is the son of tavleen singh and of governor salman taseer of punjab
in pakistan.he writes about the mentality of the typical pakistani, which is anti hindu, and racist.

the massacres of bangladeshis, and the rape of their women is testimony to their racist mindset.

1947 is testimony to their hate against the kaffirs.

it is a bad combination which has resulted in creation of a diabolical state sans humanity or decency.
i am pleased that hillary clinton has kicked them where it hurts most .ie their false pride and pretensions of being a proud nation.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 31, 2009 11:39 PM
38
Happy Ram,

>> Writer should concentrate of 2009 .....1971 left behind 28 yrs back .

True, but you yourself are stuck in 1947, as you have repeatedly indicated!
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 31, 2009 10:13 PM
37
I suspect that the author does not understand why countries are created. Pakistan, when created, was assumed to be the right cause as it was based on the assumption of religion as one religion felt that it would be mistreated by another. However, the culture is another deep cause for creation of countries. A lot of Bangladeshis felt that they are not being treated well by the Punjabis in their country. Hence the problem. For instance, the Bihari muslims who moved to Bangladesh were left nowhere after the creation of Bangladesh as they did not belong to that culture.

Pakistan repeatedly seeks parity with India. I would suggest them to seek parity with India by working on the following - handling religious minorities, economy, social development, education. If they do this, everyone in the world will recognize them. I remember meeting a Pakistani in US during my education in 1990, he said that Kashmir will become part of Pakistan. I hope that this madness goes away. I was curious why he did not say that Bangladesh will become part of Pakistan.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Oct 31, 2009 08:35 PM
36
Pakistan was borned on hate of India, and living on only hating India.When Pakistan stop hate to India, Pakistan not remain as it is.Within hour Pakistan will disintegrate in many parts.America want united Pakistan for selfish purpose.Pakistan is America`s defacto colony from last sixty years. America never allow to pakistan to make friendship with India and never want to solve the Kashmir issue.Hindu are world famous for their soft behaviour, their extraordinary creduloussness. To make them fool is very easy Pakistan and America know this so always make India Scapegoats.
Those who dream summit between India and Pakistan they are living in fool`s paradise.
Ramesh Raghuvanshi
pune, India
Oct 31, 2009 08:20 PM
35
1947 Is The Wrong Lens:KHURRAM HUSSAIN

I don't think any Indian forgets the 1971 war not as a triumph but having had to foot the bill through the refugee stamp paid by every Indian who used a postage stamp for taking care of millions of refugees accommodated in India. Neither the Pakistan military forgotten the event as every Indian remembers Musharaff was standing without saluting the Prime Minister of India when Vajpayee visited Pakistan invited by Shariff. The damage Musharaff has done to the India-Pakistan relationship, no one ever did in the entire history of post-partition days. He singularly manipulated the entire psyche of Pakistan military to play a clever game, as he might have imagined, pitching the militants against India as a loose cannon that is now playing havoc to themselves. Instead of social welfare and development it is unimaginable how Pakistan had spent the time and money to avenge the 1971 war. This foolhardy exercise is ruining Pakistan that they do not realise. Any country with 180 million people without any employment and education what would they do, except taking a career in poppy flowers.
JAYARAMAN
THANE, India
Oct 31, 2009 07:33 PM
34
Writer should concentrate of 2009 .Pakistan is heading towards further break up in four more Nations.1971 left behind 28 yrs back .

As per Dawn News Today there was anothe r attack on Pak Army vehicles near Khurram Agency .7 Paki Military men killed .
happy ram ambalvi
Ambala Cantt, India
Oct 31, 2009 05:59 PM
33
"What is the writer trying to tell?."
Selvan

Khurram is telling that he is still in MATAM and sad for his Bangali brothers who escaped Paki Fauj in 1971 .
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 31, 2009 05:50 PM
32
"The fact that Bengalis themselves were also Pakistains is forgotten by Indian elites."

The fact that Pakistani Muslims were themselves Indians before 1947 is forgotten by Khurram .
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 31, 2009 04:42 PM
31
>>This will wipe out the Pakistani sadness and grievance.
It will also wipe out the Bengalis, but that is a price well worth Pakistan's restored happiness.

Yeah, we’ll sing another lullaby like 1971 and will tell them how much we love them!
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Oct 31, 2009 04:18 PM
30
The only way to wipe out Pakistan's tragic sense of betrayal and martyrdom is to help it reconquer Bangladesh.

This will wipe out the Pakistani sadness and grievance.

It will also wipe out the Bengalis, but that is a price well worth Pakistan's restored happiness.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Oct 31, 2009 04:13 PM
29
The fact remains:

the only way to restore Hindu-Muslim brotherhood is to help Pakistan reconquer Bangladesh.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Oct 31, 2009 02:32 PM
28
in 1971 there was no civil war in pakistan, it was the liberation war of bangladesh. bangladesh first formed its government and then its army and starts the liberation war. in 1947 we have seen partition, in 1971 there was no partition. normally the big intellectuals having background of ISLAMIC STUDIES not understand any history, or they not like to understand anyway.

but it is true, it is not right to see pakistan with 1947 lens, it is right to see it with 1971 lens: the atrocities the administration & army of pakistan done to bangladesh, is the true nature of pakistan's administration & army till today. i pity for the pakistani aam-admis because their army is totally anti-people.
masud karim
chittagong, Bangladesh
Oct 31, 2009 01:51 PM
27
everyone is better off separate from that noble people, the pakistanis.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Oct 31, 2009 01:50 PM
26
ANWAAR is completely right, and I am happy to agree with him.

Bangladesh is better off without Pakistan, and India is better off, too.

Mookerjee says he perefers to unite with Pakistan if the alternative is perpetual "disharmony". A nice thought. Someone gives Mookerjee hell and Mookerjee says: "Let us move into one house !"
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Oct 31, 2009 01:43 PM
25
Khurram Hussain has done Indians a huge favour by telling them what Pakistanis are actually like, whst their real mentality actually is.

The Pakistani gripe against Hindus, says Hussain with truly chilling candour, is that they assume they had a right to commit genocide against the East Bengali majority of their country, only to be frustrated after a good start (about 3 MILLION butchered by the Pak Army, maybe 2 million of them Hindus)by Indian intervention.

Such are the Pak "brothers". Embrace them tearfull;y, O Kuldip Nayar.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Oct 31, 2009 12:54 PM
24
Pakistan is the only country in the world born and surviving on anti India plank.Every successive name sake democratically elected governments or the dictatorial regimes under the military seen to it that the country will never remain stable.Its a fragile democracy which really never took the roots.
It waged three wars on us but miserably failed .Its this shame that drives the military and the Pakistani in general to trouble India and destabilise it.The partition was forced upon us by some Indian as well as Muslim politicians.Indians can never forget the partition nor can pardon the people responsible for it.1947 though remembered as year we were free from British tyranny only to begin to suffer from the people across the border starting with the separatists in Kashmir down to Kanykumari with the jihadi elements.
vijay
Bangalore, India
Oct 31, 2009 12:00 PM
23
Does Pakistan see her existence, as a normal existence? If she does not, then what is the cause? If Pakistan sees her own existence, as a normal existence, then who is to blame? Does Pakistan talk about any foreign affairs not concerning India, and enmity with India, in her news channels? Does Pakistan have an identity, apart from India? I would rather unify with Pakistan, if the option to that scenario is perpetual disharmony with Pakistan.
Aditya Mookerjee
Belgaum, India
Oct 31, 2009 11:54 AM
22
May I make a searing opinion. If Pakistan made her existence, through self determination, by dismembering herself from India, why did she feel that she had to keep the province of East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), by force? Also, why is she so ditermined to keep Balochistan, if that province is disenchanted by Pakistan? What about the people of Pakistan? Are they very enchanted by their nation, by their army, and by their establishment? Why is the notion of the people wanting to unify with India, feared by the Pakistan Army? So much so, that they would rather risk the possibility of their nation being seen as an unstable identity, by the rest of the world?
Aditya Mookerjee
Belgaum, India
Oct 31, 2009 11:15 AM
21
""The Indian establishment does not see Pakistan as a ‘normal’ society. The substance of this abnormalcy is religion, which is also the irreducible difference between the two societies""

Well certainly that's not true.

And its otherwise what Mr. Hussain trying us to believe. It's not Indian but Pakistanis who do not want to believe that a nation born out of a painful cycle of communal violence can become a liberal and secular democracy.

For Pakistanis India means "Hindus". They have no interest or may be deliberately want to ignore the facts that India with despite its millions flaws, tried hard to give equal respect and space to its complex diversities. I am not saying there are no people in Pakistan who wants to see their nation as secular and liberal democracy but they just can't change the things and at the end of the day Pakistan remains a Islamic nation which DISCRIMINATE people based on their religion.

And yes there are radical Hindus who wants to impose their own backward agenda on state but fact is India remains a secular, liberal and a progressive state.

Actually what India and Pakistan are today is what Congress and Muslim League shaped them. While Congress wanted a inclusive, liberal and progressive plan for nation building, Muslim League was only confined to Muslim , Muslim and only Muslim.

And you see where two nations are today!!!
Storm
Jaipur, India
Oct 31, 2009 11:00 AM
20
The opinion of Khurram Hussain-to Understand Pakistan, 1947 IS The Wrong Lens-is subjective and lacks objectivity. His opinion, of the hurt that moves Pakistan is from a wound more recent—1971, also fall into my aforementioned statement. Pakistan’s problems are self-inflicted including the 1971 capitulation.

The partition with India by Jinnah was for fulfilling personal political ambition because he couldn’t become Prime Minister of Independent India with Nehru was looming large in the political horizon staking his claim on it. At the time of partition his exhortation for Indian Muslims to move over to Pakistan to create a new Muslim state didn’t get an overwhelming response that by and large preferred to stay in India. Even now India is harbouring more Muslim population than Pakistan. The partition has become history and after partition how India and Pakistan have evolved is the question.


India pursued a democratic path for the welfare of her citizenry. From the start Pakistan was on a destructive path with clench fisted dictators at the helm and the occasional democratisation process had the predictable outcome: infant mortality. They all had one thing in common: hatred for India, which resulted in vilifying India as enemy numero uno. Another of their obsession and still is the dream of the annexation of Kashmir to POK. To this end, they have waged war on India three times and failed.


Instead of becoming inimical towards India, Pakistan should have symbiosis with India and that would have been beneficial to both countries


Pakistan, after possessing nuclear weapons, has emboldened and on a mission to make havoc in India with their own terrorists. Now their own terrorists are coming home to roost-to oust the Pakistani government. Do I have sympathy for the Pakistani government? Not at all and I have sympathy for the Pakistani citizenry as fellow human beings. My worry, like others have, is Pakistani nuclear weapons falling into the hands of terrorists. Pakistan possessing nuclear weapons is like a mentally deranged person owning a gun.
Scaria Varghese
Melbourne, Australia
Oct 31, 2009 09:21 AM
19
With all it's problems,Pakistan is still cohesive with that Islamic bond.They do not allow non-Islamic forces like the evangelists to generate anti-nationals.Infact,internally speaking,it is India which is more vulnerable for implosion,with rapidly growing swathes of Christian dominated areas.Nagaland,Mizoram,large tracts of Orissa,Andhra are ripe for becoming J&Ks.India is a larger version of Nepal,when it comes to internal instability.
S.S.Nagaraj
Bangalore, India
Oct 31, 2009 08:36 AM
18
>>It should be seen as the culmination of the Bangladeshi War of Independence.

Anwaar has stated the issue exactly the way it should be, but even after so many years of liberation Rajakars here lament the breakup of Sonar (made by Gold) Pakistan and find India's direct hand on it. So, we can understand the feelings of Pakistanis. They should listen to their brain.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Oct 31, 2009 05:51 AM
17
Mr. Hussain needs to realise GEN NEXT INDIA has already moved on beyond PAKISTAN. Mr. parthasarathy on the NDTV show was right when he said that gen next indians are indifferent to pakistan. they are more interested in how India develops in the 21st century.
priya
delhi, India
Oct 31, 2009 05:47 AM
16
w.r.t kashmir ,by his own arguements Mr. khurram hussain will certainly agree that if bangladesh = kashmir = then kashmir = balochistan /pakhtunistan.
so by this logic even if india were involved in arming insurgents in balochistan ,most indians would agree "pakistan is only being given the treatment we received on kashmir"
priya
delhi, India
Oct 31, 2009 05:13 AM
15
As HUSSAIN, our Pakistani brother, so rightly says: "The fact that Bengalis themselves were also Pakistains is forgotten by Indian elites."

Quite. So they were Pakistanis, and West Pakistanis had the right to commit genocide against them.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Oct 31, 2009 03:28 AM
14
KHURRAM HUSSAIN has put his finger on it.

The reason why Pakistanis will never forgive India is that Indisa colluded with the then majority of Pakistanis - the East Bengalis - to help them gain their own state.

Once again, the Hindus were helping a majority (the East Bengalis) to oppress a minority (the West Pakistanis).

So the West Pakistani actions were - as in India before Partition - a defence of MINORITY rights.

The only way the Hindus can undo their crime is by allowing Pakistan to reconquer East Bengal. They should facilitatye this, as an act of Indo-Pak brotherhood.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Oct 31, 2009 03:01 AM
13
"First, Indians tend not to remember 1971 as a Pakistani civil war, but rather as India’s “good” war. It is remembered as an intervention by India to prevent the genocide of Bengalis by Pakistanis."

Pakistan is still in denial vis-a-vis 1971. Punjabi Pak army was carrying out the genocide of bengalis. It is a fact. I will present a solid example.

The regiment in any army world over is considered as a family. The first and foremost loyalty of any soldier and officer is towards his regiment. They are fellow brothers and family members regardless of caste, creed or region. The hate in Punjabis was so much that they not only killed fellow brother bengali officers but raped and killed their wives and other family member. What hatred could exceed this ?
JayKay Chraborty
Kolkatta, India
Oct 31, 2009 03:01 AM
12
"First, Indians tend not to remember 1971 as a Pakistani civil war, but rather as India’s “good” war. It is remembered as an intervention by India to prevent the genocide of Bengalis by Pakistanis."

Pakistan is still in denial vis-a-vis 1971. Punjabi Pak army was carrying out the genocide of bengalis. It is a fact. I will present a solid example.

The regiment in any army world over is considered as a family. The first and foremost loyalty of any soldier and officer is towards his regiment. They are fellow brothers and family members regardless of caste, creed or region. The hate in Punjabis was so much that they not only killed fellow brother bengali officers but raped and killed their wives and other family member. What hate could exceed this ?
JayKay Chraborty
Kolkatta, India
Oct 31, 2009 02:18 AM
11
This article should be read by Indians as it gives us an insight into Paki mentality. I don't agree with most of what the author says but still pakis think this way and we need to take this into account when dealing with them. Finally, if Pak is to survive, it needs to realize that all the percieved injuries done to it by India are actually inflicted on them by their own army. But this is not something we can make them realize. All we can do is look after our interests, growth and security and keep Pak at a safe, swattable distance from us.
Avinash
Mumbai, India
Oct 31, 2009 02:09 AM
10
Pakistan was created by Moslem separatists who were genetically closer to the Arabic & Central Asian Islamic invaders of the Indus river valley - the birthplace of Indian civilization. They were also still feudal and beholden to tribal customs of Islam. They could not accept democracy because that would have implied living under the rule of Hindu majority who they had subjugated and exploited for a millenia. As the Islamic invasion was a military conquest rather than triumph of any religion or ideology, the separatist Moslems trusted the principle of force rather than accomodation and so even today Pakistan is dominated by feudal landowners and their Military.

The somewhat westernized Pakistanis in large cities and the Muhajirs ( like AQ Khan or Musharaf ) provide the veneer of democracy with which Pakistan misleads the West and extorts blackmai to refrain from causing further mischief ( India is left to be a fair game of violent Paki Shaitans ).

Having created Pakistan by Jihadi mayhem ( violent ethnic cleansing of non Moslems from W. Punjab, E. Bengal etc. ) at the instigation of Jinnah ( aided and abetted by the war criminal Churchill and his British Imperialists ) now the Pakis feel insecure because India is larger. It is as if India must willingly cut itself down to the same size as Pakistan in order to make these race of murderers feel secure with their loot ! The war crimes of Punjabi against Bengalis in E. Pakistan have been hushed up and an alternate and wholly spurious victimology has been fabricated by the Mullahs and their english educated cohorts of Pakistan.

This article is nothing but yet another ridculous example of Paki duplicity.

The real issue that has to be confronted now is what does the West which has encouraged & pampered Pakistan's Jihadi blackmail for 6 decades put the genie back into the bottle - 100 live nuke warheads notwithstanding.

It starts with taking the NW Frontier Agency out of Pakistan and merging it back to Afghanistan which will then prevent Pakistan from further breeding of Jihadis and give the West an opportunity to police this rugged tribal region directly from Kabul.
Gau_Rav1
nowhereland, Japan
Oct 31, 2009 01:52 AM
9
71 is as much on Indian mind as Baluchistan is on a average pakis mind,India is much more on a pakis mind than vice verse and will remain even when Baluchistan does a Bangladesh
aditya chopra
chandigarh, India
Oct 31, 2009 01:18 AM
8
The separation of East Pakistan was not something that India schemed to bring about. It should be seen as the culmination of the Bangladeshi War of Independence. India was instrumental in bringing it about, but India had to intervene in view of the mass exodus of refugees from East Pakistan pouring into India and also to stop the indiscriminate massacre being perpetrated by the Pakistani Army in East Pakistan.

Instead of seeing that episode of history as an atrocity committed by India on Pakistan, it would be better to see it as the liberation of Pakistan and Bangladesh from each other. Both countries are better off as a result of the separation. Pakistan's current internecine wars are partly the result of an unhealthy preoccupation with a chronic sense of martyrdom which impedes nation building and economic growth.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 31, 2009 12:13 AM
7
As long as muslims are killed and raped by muslims, there is noproblem.You will never hear a word of protest fromany muslim. This happened in bangladesh in 1971. What the author is trying to say is gutter rubbish. A paki is always a paki,no matter where u put him. They cannot be trusted.
george
london, United Kingdom
Oct 30, 2009 11:31 PM
6
Dear Mr. Hussain,

It is a very well written article with clear logic and conclusion. However, you seem to have missed one fact - human mind usually focuses on one that has caused it the maximum pain and trauma. So for Pakistan, 1971 was the traumatic dismemberment whereas for India, it is 1947 that constitutes the traumatic dismemberment. For Pakistan, 1947 was a just war, not a war of choice whereas for India, 1971 is a just war and not a war of choice.

looking at the whole situation, one is reminded of an old song (I believe a Bob Seegar number) - the introduction to the heartache began as a child, it is no wonder, he grew up to be so wild.

We both people are still caught in our heartbreaks and so long we do not move ahead from these, there is no redemption, no closure. Perhaps what we need is a South African style Truth Commission to allow past to finally rest on both sides and for life to move on.
Vibhuti
London, England
Oct 30, 2009 11:12 PM
5
What is the writer trying to tell?.
Selvan
Boston, United States
Oct 30, 2009 09:56 PM
4
It's too difficult to generalize how Pakistanis view Indians and Indians view Pakistanis. But if online English newspapers are any indications, one can surely notice that Pakistani newspapers carry more news and opinion about India than Indian media write about Pakistan. And the more you read the more you sense Pakistani despair about their state of affairs, jealousy about India's progress and their urgent need to assert to their readers about the weaknesses of India.
The author may be right that Indians do not care much about Bangladesh war. But Indians don't even care about Pakistan unless there are terror attacks. The nationalism around Indo-Pak Hockey and cricket no longer attracts as much attention. Indians wish to mind their businesses-so also should the Pakistanis.
DC
NEW YORK, United States
Oct 30, 2009 09:00 PM
3
A K Ghai,

>>Obama will show us our worth by saying there is no proof of involvement of Pak ISI .And we will be satisfied.

Hillary Clinton could not just hide her true feelings though. The story headlined, "Washington gasps at Hillary charm-el-shake offensive that leaves Islamabad stunned" in today's TOI is interesting. She has the guts calling spade a spade.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Oct 30, 2009 08:32 PM
2
"To Understand Pakistan, 1947 is The WRONG LENS" because of the PAK ARMY'S predominant position in Pakistan. If the "PEOPLE" of Pakistan grant that esteemed predominance to the "DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVT OF PAKISTAN" the situation could change rapidly. What the people of Pakistan need to understand is that the BEST MILITARY RULE can not be "half as good" as the worst DEMOCRATIC RULE- want proof- look what is happening in PAKISTAN!!!!!!!!
Akil
Bangalore, India
Oct 30, 2009 08:09 PM
1
"Pakistan has been on the Indian mind since the moment of their co-creation. India and Pakistan "

Basic mistake .India was not co-created with Pakistan .Inda and Hindus existed for thousands of years back .Muslims seperated from India fearing Hindus' domination.They must be rueing the decision of seperation .

2."But horror does not preclude abiding distaste for the Indian state’s wilful opportunism in breaking Pakistan apart."

Distaste for the Indians ? Pakistanies killed 30 lacs human beings and raped lacs women and girls .This fiendish act unparalled in History has not left any distate in the mouth of Kuhrram Hussain ?

The man is totally insensitive to the biggest Genocide on the earth.

3. "The Pakistani establishment has internalised the memory of 1971. In all things, and at all times, it must account for India. Dismemberment has the requisite effect of focusing the mind on existential matters. Nothing can be taken for granted."

Nothing can be Taken for granted ?? Author writes as if it was their right do whatever they wanted in their Country .

4.". It is merely to hope that a mutual comprehension of normalcy may lead to peace and progress. Certainly, no one will deny that there is value in that."


Peace will last till next ISI sponsered 26/11 happens.

But Khurram need not worry the Indian response will not be different again.We will shout ,grumble,run to USA ,shout in World forums .

Obama will show us our worth by saying there is no proof of involvement of Pak ISI .And we will be satisfied.
a k ghai
mumbai, India