P Chidambram had to vist Deoband to pecify the clergy .Muslims did vote in large numbers for Congress in recently held Elections after being sorely disapponted with Mulayam Singh who shook hand with Kalyan Singh whom Muslims hold responsible for babri destruction.But that does not mean that Congress had become the favourite of Muslims.Congress was the case of TINA -there is no other alternative Party .

About eight months back Deoband Head Imam had said in a Public meeting that 'Congress had harmed Muslims more than BJP'Imam said that Congress had declared the Muslims as Terrorists .This was reference to Indian Mujahidins as a terrorist organisation.Deoband wanted an judicial investigation in Batala House encounter.

The most insulting remarks were reserved for Arjun Singh for who appointed Commissions but never implemented the findings . Patil the ex Home Minister was castigated for his role in Indian Mujahidins and for the susequent arrests of Muslims in UP.

Hence Chidambram had to go to Deoband to appease the Maulvies.The Fatwa on Vande Matram could be a delibrate hint to Congress tell that though Muslims did vote for Congress ut they are still angry . Otherwise where was the need to rake Vande Matram issue when Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad had 50 yrs back got deleted a few Words from the orignal version of Vande Matram .I consider Azad sahib more knowledegeable and one of the greatest Muslims of India .

Ghai,

>> When Maulvies are damaging Muslims themselves ...

True! It seems the worst idiots become maulvis! There are progressive maulvies too, but they would not make interesting news stories.

mr ghai

we wait a comment from the resident maulvi.

he may claim that it is due to the rss.

"No TV, no music, beards a must: new rules in a Gujarat riot relief camp

As per Islamic Shariyat, any person possessing a television, or any other such Shaitani goods in his house, cannot be the beneficiary of money from Zakat, Fitr, Sadka or any Imdaah "


http://www.indianexp...-relief-camp/541620/

I thought Mailvi Sufi Islam and his TNN is located in Waziristan only .But they are in Baroach( Gujrat) too.

When Maulvies are damaging Muslims themselves I don't think there is any thing left for the Bajrangies to contribute further.

happy Ram Ambala,

What do you have to answer to earlier write about the Hindutvas dealing with Dalits and even in India christians were Churches were burnt.

Ahmed Imran,

>> Let us be frank with the Christians of the Islamic East and put to them these questions: What do they fear from the rule of Islam? "

Ask Yusuf Yehonna your cricket Captain ? Or Ranjha Mesih ? Why Christan Girls' School and Hostel burnt three weeks back ?

To Gaytri,

Hindutva states lead in crimes against dalits

Uttar Pradesh which has the distinction of giving the country its first Dalit woman Chief Minister, also tops the list of states with highest number of cases of crime against Scheduled Castes.

With a staggering 4,960 cases of crime committed against people of Scheduled Castes, Uttar Pradesh tops the list in 2006, according to a Ministry of Home Affairs’ data.

The state is closely followed by Madhya Pradesh with 4,214 such cases being registered the same year.

Among states of South India, Andhra Pradesh, where 3,891 such cases were registered in 2006 ranks the highest.

Taken together, the three states – Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh and Andhra Pradesh – constituted more than 51 per cent of crimes committed against SCs in the country in 2006.

Analysis of data shows that number of crimes against Scheduled Castes have increased in the country.

While 26,127 cases of crime against SCs were registered in 2005, the subsequent year, saw 27,070 cases being registered. The data for 2007 is yet to be compiled.

As per the data available for for the year 2004-2006, UP has seen a increase in crime against SCs.

While 2004 saw 3,785 such cases being registered, 4,397 cases were recorded in 2005.

AP, where 3,117 cases of crime against SCs were reported in 2005, has also seen an increase in the number.

On the other hand, MP has seen a decline in such cases.

While data for 2006 showed 4,214 cases were registered in the state for crime against SCs, in 2005 the number was 4,222. The year 2004 witnessed the highest number with 4,699 cases being registered.

Among the seven Union Territories, the capital has recorded 21 such cases, which is the highest number.
According to the figures available, the number of persons convicted for crime against SCs under SC/ST (Prevention of Atrocities) Act 1989, including all IPC crime, in 2005 were 12,468, which increased to 13,449 in 2006.

Express India, New Delhi, May 4, 2008

to muslim posters

when push comes to shove all of you line up behind
the mad mullahs. islam in danger, is your rallying
crowd.

as salman rushdie said " where are the muslim moderates. I can not see or hear them "

there are just a few, and most of them are scared to
get out of the closet.scared that they will be beaten up and humiliated by their own fellow muslims.

faruki admits that it is difficult to reform muslims but not impossible. so the rest of the world is faceing a community of 1.5 billion difficult muslims, but with faruki,s assurance that it is not impossible to reform them.

now who in his right mind would want this thankless
job. certainly not the so called moderate muslims.
they sit queitly by comeing up with absurd arguments
criticiseing any real measure to reform fellow muslims.

as a result most of the muslim world is antiquated in thinking,and an obstacle to progress.

it is disappointing to see how few muslims are in fact
liberal, in this forum.

imran

what do muslims in india do with their money in banks.
do they refuse payment of interest.

what do they do when they want to borrow money from banks. do they refuse to pay interest.

buddy you are the perfect example of why muslims dont
fit in nonmuslim societies.

ahmed ibrahim

the production of beer,alchohol is increaseing by 20 percent per year. exports are not permitted.you can
draw your own conclusions.

afghanistan a devout muslim nation is source of
enormous amounts of heroin, and iran, afghanistan, and
pakistan have a increaseing number of heroin addicts.

so muslims are useing heroin instead of alchohol.

if your ideal is islam, then pakistan should be your
model of a perfect society. why do you live in india, especially with growing hostility towards muslims.

you people lack honesty, and use absurd arguments in defence of your faith.

Ahmed Imran, Chennai,

Educate me. here are the Qur'an verses on HAJJ.

Surah 22 Verse 27. And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to you on foot and on every kind of camel, Lean on account of journeys, Through deep and distant mountain highways;

Surah 22 Verse 28. That they may witness the benefits for them, And celebrate the name of Allah, through the days appointed, over the cattle which he has provided for them: then eat you thereof and feed the distressed ones in want.

Now explain both Verse 27 and 28. Doesn't Qur'an explicitly state HAJJ should be performed "on foot or on camel". How does Verse 28 anyway modify verse 27 to the extent that "camel can be equated to aircraft"????

---Leader who has completely erased or eliminated alcoholism and poverty from their community in ther life time--- It was such a small community in MADINA, a small town and was done by raiding the caravan going to Macca and by killing the original inhabitants- JEWS like Beni Qurayzah

Dear Akhil,

I Challenge you to name a society or a Leader who has completely erased or eliminated alcoholism and poverty from their community in ther life time . Prophet Mohd Sal did such an admirable thing in his lifetime itself . Dont you think that act as something to be marvelled at or are you going to tell me that Alcoholism is a way to progress . Dont close your eyes and tell the whole world is dark.

Dear Akhil , The verse which you are referring to only talks about the Hajj it does not anywhere it says you should only go to hajj on camel only then it will be accepted. please see the verse no 28 also . Dont try to quote from Mr.Aroun Shouries book (He is staunch opposer of Muslim and he was put to shame by Many islamic Scholars )Secondly with regards to issuing interest free loans - This is what Quran is trying to say for 1400 years . Hope you are not freaking out or trying to freak out others also . You are also in support of issuing interest free loans by the same breath you are also in support of taking interest . We hope you are not suffering from Schizophrenic disorder.

( Corrected Message )

Dear Akhil , I will try to address your queries one by one if possible God Willing.
1) Keep Muslim uneducated in Burqa - Wearing burqa does not have any relevence with Education , So you can be educated at the same time still can dress moderately.
2)Ensure All muslim boys study in madarassas - Yes make them study in Madrassas as well as in any Schools which provide Academic studies also.
3)Issue a fatwa against Computer - This is ridiculous to think in your narrow mind that Islam opposes anything which is good for the Individual or for the benefit of the society. Don't be a frog in the well.
4) Declare every thing haram if it is not mentioned in the Quran - Again we can declare something as haram only when it is haram and can declare Halal as halal only when it is halal .No one has the authority to intervene in What God Almighty has legislated.

Insist people to go to Hajj on Camel back for Hajj - Only performing Hajj is the obligation that too only when you are able bodied physically and financially - Going on Camel or in Airways or in other modern means depends on your convenience - If u are a Muslim and like to do hajj by boarding a camel, then ofcourse its your choice.

For your information the word ulema comes from the root word ILM which means Knowledge , as far as Islam is concerned it categorises Knowledge as only useful Knowledge and Non useful knowledge , it does not distinguishes knowledge as Worldy Knowledge and religious knowledge.

"working in an interest based firms" Even in Judaisam Jewish people were prohibited by God Almighty to deal in interes or they would incur the wrath of God Almighty, But Jews did not obliged to the teaching of the their scripture and started to deal with interest. Now lets focus on the Evil side of interest or Usury , Usury is seen as a heinous crime in Islam as Islam considers it as total exploitation . To refresh your memory in India not long ago some pesants took their lives since they were not able to pay the interests.
Ahmed Imran
Chennai, India

some peasants took their lives since they were not able to pay the interests.
Ahmed Imran, Chennai.

So who is stopping you from giving "interest free loans" to the farmers??? Instead of issuing "stupid" FATWAS do something.

Qur'an states in Surah22, Verse 27 To perform HAJJ "on foot and mounted on every kind of camel". If "EVERY KIND OF CAMEL" can be stretched to include "AIRCRAFT", many more modification to Qur'an to suit the "secular society" should be acceptable.

Dear Akhil , I will try to address your queries only by one if possible God Willing.
1) Keep Muslim uneducated in Burqa - Wearing burqa does not haveany relevence with Education , So you can be educated at the same time still can dress moderately.
2)Ensure All muslim boys study in madarassas - Yes make them study in Madrassas as well as any Schools which provide Academic studies also.
3)Issue a fatwa against Computer - That is ridiculous to think in our own crooked mind. Don't be a fraud in the well.
4) Declare every thing haram if it is not mentioned in the Quran - Again we can declare something as haram only when it is haram and can declare Halal as halal only when it is halal .No one has the authority to intervene in What God Almighty has legislated.

Insist people to go to Hajj on Camel back for Hajj - Only performing Hajj is the obligation that too only when you are able bodied physically and financially - Going on Camel or in Airways or in other modern means depends on your convenience - If u are a Muslim and like to do hajj by boarding a camel, then ofcourse its your choice.

For your information the word ulema comes from theroot word ILM which means Knowledge , as far as Islam is concerned it categorises Knowledge as only useful Knowledge and Non useful knowledge , it does not distinguishes knowledge as Worldy Knowledge and religious knowledge.

"working in an interest based firms" Even in Judaisam Jewish people were prohibited by God Almighty to deal in interes or they would incur the wrath of God Almighty, But Jews did not obliged to the teaching of the their scripture and started to deal with interest. Now lets focus on the Evil side of interest or Usury , Usury is seen as a heinous crime in Islam as Islam considers it as total exploitation . To refresh your memory in India not long ago some pesants took their lives since they were not able to pay the interests.

Mubaraq Ali
Chennai,

1-- Keep Muslim Women uneducated in BURQUA.
2-- Ensure all Muslim boys study only in Madrassa.
3-- Issue a FATWA against Computer- pious Muslims will visit UNISLAMIC sites if they learn computer.
4-- Declare everything HARAM if it is NOT mentioned in QUR'AN or HADITHS. Insist on people going on camel back or on foot for HAJJ as it has been mentioned so in QUR'AN.
5-- Please feel free to insist on following the ULEMAS in everything.

It will reduce competition for rest of us. Muslims can compete amongst them for becoming ULEMAS while rest can avail the well paid jobs. Any way QUR'AN does not mention anything about IT jobs and prohibits working in were "interest" is involved , photography, modeling etc - so all banking, movie, ad, etc etc jobs are also gone. The only request is that after insisting on living life the MUSLIM WAY please do not accuse the rest of us of DISCRIMINATION and start demanding reservation inspite of having ruled India for more than 800 years - many parts of the country even up to 1947.

Lookout/Stopperbhai,

>> The non Muslim world may be unaware of the number of sects...

Irrelevant to this thread.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States

you to Mubaraq Ali.

The non Muslim world may be unaware of the number of sects that are there amongst the Muslims.What the world knows is that the warriors of the lord or the Jihadis themselves are fighting violent battles along with their own brothers .For the non Muslim world it may appear as sectarian wars but it in fact is creating suspicion and apprehensions in the minds of the non Muslim world.Now who represents whom in the Muslim community or who are good guys and bad guys is as confusing and weird issue as it can be.Is there true liberalism and if its there why they dont raise their voices when a Muslim brother is killing another innocent fellow Muslim brother.Where that exemplary Muslim brotherhood gone?what this world knows so far is that when it comes to religion all the Muslims liberal or otherwise close their eyes in affirmative as if they are not aware whats happening.This is a Muslim problem and had to be solved by the very Muslims.Its because of this sectarianism like the castesim amongst the Hindus that made them weak and vulnerable.We would not have seen Americans landing their feet in Iraq or Afghanistan if the Muslims were united.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
you to DC.


Its not that Pakistan is not aware of the benefits of a better civilisations/modern world but all it wants is to make a living out of selling to its Arab brothers it unique way of confronting the enemies of Islam.And i that process it has reduced itself into such a state today that Islam is fighting against Islam there.
When Pakistan disintegrates it would definitely be reduced to smaller fragments and ruled by war lords that would want to impose the rules prevailing in 700 AD.In fact though Pakistan wished to imperialise or expand by separating Kashmir from India will be seen more small and smaller.

DC,

>> a lot more difficult to change a mindset that discards any new learning from the western/other civilisations and accepts only a 700 AD Arabic world view as the only authentic learning.

Difficult, yes! Impossible, no! The process would be slow and painful, but even the Talibans cannot for ever ignore the world around them. And the world is getting smaller and smaller!

Anwaar

I support your view as well as Saba's.
I also believe that it is possible to find a middle path to embrace modernity and westernized education while following all the moral and religious teachings of Quoran. And I have come across Muslims who are not agnostics, but devout Muslims who follow all the Islamic customs at the same time comfortable in the westernized way of living.
But Mubaraq Ali's post is a proof that there are others who believe that an Ulema guided path is the way to go for the Muslims. English education is not needed, Madrassa education is sufficient, western influences are necessarily evil etc. etc. And I guess Mubaraq Alis will outnumber Saba Naqvis in the Muslim world. And that explains why politicians still visit Ulemas.
It'll be a lot easier for you to debate with the Hindutwavadis and rightfully denounce the religious bigots from all religions. But you'll find it a lot more difficult to change a mindset that discards any new learning from the western/other civilisations and accepts only a 700AD Arabic world view as the only authentic learning. Sachar committee report shows the sorry state of the Muslims in India, but it is also true that if Mubaraq Ali's views are widely shared by Indian Muslims that the ulemas are more enlightened than Saba Naqvis then Muslims cannot progress as a community in the modern world.

BJP bashing is fine ( their recent elections records do not really show that they are already suffering from the rejection of many voters) - but the all powerful conservative elements of Muslims are the worst enemies of the Muslims - not a Narendra Modi nor George Bush. If the liberal elements like you out of fear do not strongly oppose the conservatives and lead the Muslims toward accepting modern world view, Muslims will only go downhill from this point.

faruki

so you think that barelvis will make a huge change.

who are these guys anyway.i bet that they are ornery critters like you.god help poor muslim women.

their fate is between the devil and the deep blue sea.

Mubaraq Ali,

>> If the clergy or the Ulema is not the representatives of the Muslims, then who on earth can don their role.

It would be tragic if the Wahabi-Deobandi ulema are seen as being representatives of Muslims. Their archaic pronouncements can only keep Muslims backward in education, leave Muslim women in a disadvantageous position and retard the integration of Muslims with the general Indian population. Barelvi Muslims, Shia Muslims, Sufi Muslims and other liberal sects and liberal individuals reject the rigidity, fundamentalism and literalism of the Wahabi-Deobandi sect.

Gayatri/Lalit,

>> liberals of all religions are natural allies.

But you are neither a liberal nor do you belong to any religion. You are a hate-spewing bigot.

Being a Muslim I feel that Saba Naqvi’s essay on the Clerical hold on Muslims is completely erroneous. In short, her essay suggests the following points
1. No Secular politician should try to attend Muslim religious gatherings.
No one can deny the fact that Chidambaram and Sitaram Yechuery attended the meeting to garner votes or to reach out to Muslims. But that’s politics for you. On the other hand, We can in fact wonder why the Ulema should be inviting the politicians to these religious meetings. That being said, this again proves that BJP and its hindutva parties are politically untouchable for any sensible Muslim.
2. The Clergy is not to be considered as the representatives of Indian Muslims
If the clergy or the Ulema is not the representatives of the Muslims, then who on earth can don their role. Is Saba Naqvi the representative of the Muslim voice? Take it or not, the clergy or the Ulema will keep their focus to guide the Muslims. It is their duty to opine on the dos and donts for a Muslim.
Being a liberal agnostic it is difficult for her to follow the Fatwa from the clergy or in a larger perspective it is difficult to follow Islam
You a liberal agnostic and you are not able to appreciate or perhaps stomach Hijab and other Islamic rulings. So what’s the Problem! The Ulema is not here to hear views from a liberal. The Ulema are here to guide the Muslims based on the Islamic Law.
Wait a minute! What is the meaning of liberal agnostic? Who thinks anything is ok. You are ok with half naked attires which are designed to reveal your body then to hide. But you are not okay with the Hijab.
And then you move on to say that you cannot imagine not loving Vande Maataram. Again, the fatwa is for the Muslims, not for an agnostic or someone having a Muslim Name. There are many more issues to concentrate on for your Essays. By any chance if you do know what Shirk in Islam is you know the seriousness of the fatwa on Vande Mataram? The Ulema has taken pains to disassociate patriotism and Vande Mataram.
3. Indian political class is upholding the fatwa to appease the Muslims and thus exploiting the Muslim mass.
The Indian political class has no other way than this! It is a hard truth that Muslims are being exploited for votes. But muslim masses are not the only class to be exploited? Think about the Hindu organizations. What is RSS and its affiliates are doing?
4. No single group should be seen as the spokesman of a community and that the same mistake has led to the partition
Though it is true that no single group can serve the interests of any community, is there anything wrong in having a collection of learned men to lead a community? The history of Partition is too deep to fault on Muslim league alone. Albeit the fact that Muslim league playing a critical part in it, the Hindu organizations and Brit had a fair role to play.
5. Political class has not taken steps to modernize and has always dealt with the clergy to address any Issue.
What do you mean by modernization of Ulema? Can we ask the Ulema to wear Jeans and T-shirts or perhaps a suit? Can we ask them not to spot a Beard? Can we ask them not to bother us on any non-secular Issues? Can we ask them to change the tenets of the religion to suit a liberal agnostic? Will you be quiet then? You wouldn’t stop even then! You wouldn’t stop until there is someone to be called as Ulema! You want a society which is completely material and completely godless! The Ulema are fighting for exactly the reverse of what you think.
If the political class were to address the Muslims where would it reach to? Can we have a group enlightened people like saba to reach out! Most of the people in India may not read English and the other half would know that a magazine like outlook Exist!
6. The most well known institution run by the clergy are in an abysmal state.
You have charged that institutions are corruption ridden, poorly run and is very Backward. Let us deal it individually.
The AIMPLB or the All India Muslim Personal Law Board is there to make sure that the Muslims in India are able to follow the Laws of Islam in regards to family, Inheritance etc. Of course they have Ulema from Deoband and other schools of thought. You charge them with not attempting to “rationalize” personal law. You will first have to understand why the AIMPLB is there in the first place.
The simple reason is what is rational to a liberal agnostic is not rational to the Ulema or the Muslims! A liberal agnostic is okay with homosexuality and living in relationship, A Muslim is not. A liberal agnostic is okay with women being used as a toy for advertisement in the name of freedom, A Muslim is not. A liberal agnostic is okay with TV channels and Media advertising Adultery in the name of Love and Romance, A Muslim is not.
A Muslim is not a Muslim unless he/she believes in Quran. The Quran says “This day we have completed our favour on you (i.e the religion)” We do not want Islam to suit the needs of a liberal agnostic.
And then the Wakf Board, No one can deny that the wakf is in very poor state. But what has the Ulema or the clergy got to do with it. You yourself have clearly stated that wakf board personal are being appointed by the government. How could it function normally?
And in the end we have the Hajj committee. Is this being headed by the clergy? what is the matter with you?
Have you been to Deoband? (I have not been there anyways). It is an independent organization without any government support providing knowledge to millions. Is that not an example of a well oiled Institution?
7. Finally the Ulema of Muslims are unenlightened and are fanatics.
How on earth can you call the Ulema as unenlightened? They may be perhaps in your world view. You view the world through a medium called liberal agnostic. The Ulema and the Muslims view it through the prism of Islam.

Before P.Chidambaram went to attend the Deoband road show of the clerics he was telling or lying to the country that in the 26/11 there was no proof yet of the involvement of the local Muslims and the obvious reasons for his ataement stems from the fact that he was not prepared to harm the congress party's prospects in the by elections.Where was the necessity for a secular country's home minister to attend a purely religious congregation and there too try to please the crowd by saying that the demolition of the Bari structure was wrong.Now after America's FBI helped India listen to the horror story of a Pakistani American terrorist named Hadley who visited India and Pakistan several times before 26/11 and after it only proves his hollow claim that there is no hand of the local Muslims.The cupboard having the skeletons of terror is just opened for the congress.

The reason why Mr Chidambaram went to meet the Deoband clerics, is because the Deoband seminary is very important to a sizable number of Muslim's who consider themselves devout. It is true, that the devout Hindu, is adept at both matters of his religion, and worldly matter's as well. In Islam, there is a dichotomy, today. Where Muslim's are taught about the external world, and it's significance, in the holy Koran, seminaries like the Deoband are not reconciling the Muslim to his surroundings. But still, the Deoband seminary is much respected, in many parts of the world, and I believe it to be a place of learning of Mohammadan theology. One may learn many wise and good thing's at Deoband, but what is required is to reconcile the profession of a modern doctor to exist in Islam, and many other modern professions to exist in Islam. Truly, if the Prophet Mohammad had lived in present times, how would the world have reconciled to him? I believe that people must visit Deoband to encourage love of God in themselves, but the Deoband cleric's must encourage their flock to reconcile with their modern surroundings. Why cannot a person be seen as a person who is at ease in the modern world, and also religious? Also, can a person be considered a Muslim, who does not speak Arabic, nor follow Muslim customs? I mean, there must be many good people in the world, who neither speak Arabic, nor follow Muslim customs. I must add, that I see the seminary at Deoband, an asset to India's identity, of plurality. If the people of Pakistan, and Afghanistan follow Deoband, then the seminary at Deoband must have more influence than those which exist anywhere. Let the different faith's be different, and yet, when an Indian sees another Indian, let him not differentiate between himself and the other adversely, due to faith.

liberals of all religions are natural allies, and not
adverseries. unfortunately most of us abuse eac other,
rather then fighting the real adverseries who are
bigoted, fanatics and antimodern.

ofcource liberal muslims and liberal nonmuslims have
problems and biases. however these are relatively minor
in comparison with differences with the real forces of darknesses.

a getting togather of moderates of all kinds, in matters such as environment, traffic, education will
be good. later on other matters can be debated in a
friendly manner.

the presence of a few clown in these gatherings will
help in provideing a friendly atmosphere. i would
suggest spammer, and augustus aaa.

At one level I am happy to read so much in the heated debate that Ms Saba Naqvi's article generated. I whole heartedly agree with her critical comments on Mr Chdambaram and politicians like him paying their obeisance at the feet of the backward looking Mullahs simply to gain their blessings, resulting in votes for themelves and their parties.

But this debate so called in Outlook is becoming childish and at times silly leading to mutual mudslinging between the votaries of Islam and Hinduism. And why should that be ? Afterall, Ms Saba is making a simple but valid and welcome point that appeasing the religious preachers by politicians is inappropriate in a democracy . Either you agree or disagree with this proposition. Why go into the relative merits and demerits of Islam and Hiduism ? And for what purpose ? There is already a chasm between these two communities in India. Will not such debate, so called ( but in point of fact vitriolic rhetorics) exasperate things further and widen the distance between Hindu and Muslim minds? I appeal to the commentators to eschew such pointless and wholly avoidable polemics. At present there is great need to clear the misunderstandings that exist between the two communities. By our comments, we should encourage, secularism, spirit of tolerance and mutual respect and an attitude of give and take. Let Hindus and Muslims in India become bhai-bhais. Let us respect the sentiments and belief systems of each other. Let us remember one thig : Humanism is above all religions. Let caste, ethnicity, region, language and religion be su-servient to the greater cause of of Humanism. Instead if we let these secondary factors enter into our politics and social life, the situataion becomes a vicious circle. Not Hinduism..not Islam, but Humanism
should be our guiding principle. Let us come back to the path of sanity. Each one of us may have his/her private belief system, but in public life let only secular approach prevail.

Its now obvious that the Samajwadi party which all along been pampering the Muslims is now started to being rejected by the very Muslims.Whether the Muslims are showing their political opportunism as usual or simply trying to show that no one can take them for granted.The Muslims seems increasingly go back to the congress fold as they have always dealt with any damn party that is a winning horse.
Time alone will reveal why the congress was going slow and soft particularly over Muslim terrorism and the conversion agendas of the Christian missionaries.It only shows to what extent the opportunist congress can go in order to get power and if in power to remain in power even if its is at the cost of the country.May be the Muslims are voting the congress for the favors received.

DC,

"The fools who say that Jinnah's dreams have shattered in modern Pakistan fail to understand that if a country is built on the foundation of a separate nation for the Muslims and through "Direct Action" of fanning communal riots"

Exactly. Awesome posting. I agree with you 100 %. I find it funny to read articles by pakistani liberals on how Taliban is damaging Pakistan and jinnah's dream of secular pakistan. Secular pakistan is oxymoron. He created country based on religion for his political opportunism that caused so much bloodshed. The fact that india has more muslims than pakistan itself has invalidated reasoning behind creation of pakistan. I find it amusing that same media who thrashes Modi everyday for gujrat riots, treat Jinnah as some kind of secular messiah.

sentences are eloquent,by the author of the links....

Like Nehru, Jinnah also shattered the established basis of discourse. Nehru did so on the minorities' rights, Jinnah on India's unity; Nehru in arrogant ignorance, Jinnah in arrogant reliance on his tactical skills. Jinnah's greatness lay in the pre-1940 record when he was a tireless conciliator, a real statesman. Both men were secularists. Therein lies the tragedy. Nehru harmed secularism by denying the legitimacy of minority rights. Jinnah ruined it by the two-nation theory.

DC,
JUST GO THROUGH THIS,AND LET ME KNOW

http://www.hinduonne...0050812001308300.htm

http://www.hinduonne...0050826003003400.htm

I can't make out why some readers are making a fuss about Jinnah. Politicians may say a hundred things, but must be judged by what they have finally got. Jinnah, Nehru , Gandhi - everyone was a politician and were driven by their political ambitions. Jinnah like many of early leaders of the Indian national congress had an affluent upbringing, had a legal background and was pursuing the traditional Congress approach of seeking political power through legal means. This trend worked well during the times of Gokhale, Tilak , Motilal Nehru, C.R. Das etc. But Gandhi's ascent in Congress politics using a different approach of civil disobedience enderaed both Congress and Gandhi to the masses and also sidelined certain established leaders like Jinnah in Congress inner power struggle. (Gandhi also loved his political power as a king maker - don't forget the brilliant political moves after the Haripura and Tripuri Congress that forced the winner Subhash Bose to quit Congress.)
But while Gandhi used religious symbols (and he was a devoted Hindu who used to quote Gita) he never joined Savarkar or any religious group and never used religion for his political goal.
Jinnah on the other hand may have been sidelined politically from Congress. But in his new incarnation he took the help of divisive religious forces to relaunch his political career. I for one have staunch disregard for Jinnah because of his shameless political opportunism - a non-religious westernized Muslim joining the religious bigots purely for personal political gains knowing fully well the disastrous consequences of the partition of India. (And a religious Muslim Maulana named Kalam Azad tried to defend a united India.)
All the bull shit Jinnah said about building a secular society becomes meaningless when you come to power holding the hand of communalism and then later try to politically disown them.
The fools who say that Jinnah's dreams have shattered in modern Pakistan fail to understand that if a country is built on the foundation of a separate nation for the Muslims and through "Direct Action" of fanning communal riots, it can never have tolerance toward others. A prominent Indian leader ( I forgot who it was Patel? or Azad?)said about Jinnah's idea of dividing a country for pecaseful relationship of Hindus and Muslims living side by side " it is the divorce first for ensuring a happy marriage ".
More people died during the post-partition riots in India and Pakistan than they did during India's freedom struggle under the British rule.
Are Muslims socio-economically better of living in Pakistan than any other parts of South Asia?
Anyone can have grievances against Gandhi and Nehru. But to deify Jinnah who pressed for partition of India knowing its consequences (don't tell me about the bull shit on a Cabinet Mission formula) is like accepting that communal divide is the best thing to have happened to Hindu Muslim relationship.

to all posters

saba keeps on pouring new fuel to keep the controversey of hindus fascists vs muslim bigots going.

its a bore. everyone has written enough on this subject.

the educated members of the two communities should stop writeing provacative comments. the real enemy is really anti modernistic tendencies.

to compete with the world everyone has to change from
the orthodox to the modern. and everyone in all communities can be modern . peope can ofcource refuse to change.

however in stead of trying to convince the convinced
backwards maybe they should just be ignored.

this is an attempt to a new start.

saba should be put on notice.she should stop writeing her usual hash. how about writeing on gardening,
historical monuments in delhi, or migratory birds.

will mr.bazeed mirza from edinburgh kindly tell us why pakistani and bangladeshi children are far behind in education than indian children in UK

Ahmed Imran,

>> .. put to them these questions: What do they fear from the rule of Islam?

Ideologies such as Islamism and Hindutva have to condemned - not feared. Why are the Islamists and Hindutva folk afraid of secular democracy? They cannot face the rights/justice/freedom etc that comes with secular democracy? Can they face the criticism/attack of religion for example? Before asking questions such as why fear islamist rule, hindutva rule etc, ask yourself, why fear secular democracy and equality before law, universal human rights etc?

>> Here are a few examples of fanaticism. Courts of inquisition ... Have the Christians of Islamic East ever suffered such treatment?

So apart from the inquisition, every other atrocity, injustice, violation of human rights/freedom etc is just fine? The author of the article that you pasted is defending the indefensible – one can do so only with faulty logic as is evident.

""perverted arguement,and lame too,by this you can make judges out of executioners""

And as usual you will live in the comfort of denial rather facing the reality.

""as much as you need a lunatic asylum.""

Every place is perfect as long as religion of peace and its Jihad cheerleader like you, do not follow:D

Darul Uloom Is Good For Nothing

Ideally on 16th August 1947 its building should have been demolished. And a new modern education institute should have been built there to remove the darkness spreaded by it for years.

India's secularism too is not perfect but at least India try as much possible in her capacity to create a tolerant society based on the modern laws.....

perverted arguement,and lame too,by this you can make judges out of executioners.

Muslims need most is commonsense

as much as you need a lunatic asylum.

""why there are pogroms in india,if its secular?""

Nothing is ideal in this world. India's secularism too is not perfect but at least India try as much possible in her capacity to create a tolerant society based on the modern laws unlike to those dark lands where time is still frozen in 7th century.

""jinnahs greatness lies in that he had a vision of india,a united india which""

Vision for united India? Are you out of mind? It made me think that what Muslims need most is commonsense.

"Either we shall have India divided or destroyed". This is what your great visionary Jinnah said. This was the great vision.

Ahmed Imran,

>> Let us be frank with the Christians of the Islamic East and put to them these questions: What do they fear from the rule of Islam?

Although you make some good points, an absolute need of our time is to have a system in which people of all creeds can live as equals, the state and religion are kept apart, and religion becomes one's private affair. How far countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are from such an ideal is appalling. Even in India, neither the Congress nor the BJP is truly secular, but at least the intent and affirmation of secularism are widely accepted and are enshrined in the Constitution. Secularism is always a work in progress. More than 200 years after the U.S. Constitution was written, the U.S. Supreme Court still has to grapple with cases involving the separation doctrine.

. maybe like all hindus he
is also a fascist....

my wife is hindu,so dont denigrate her and her community.dont think everybody belongs to your loonie fringe

they are hindu fascists like sarkozy, belusconi,
geert wilders, angela merkel .....

i didnt know that,i havent heard of government sponsored pogroms in europe.

they want that the
afghans and the pakis should come back to the fold....

good,then you can settle your scores with pathans,isnt it.

Ahmed Imran
Chennai, India
Why go that far to Iraq to glorify the golden era of Islam .In India you had the golden era of Mughal except for its unfortunate decimation by the atrocities of its own bad rulers.But no one denies one of the oldest civilization is known to have existed in Egypt.The present wealth and richness after all is only from the resources generated by oil while the good name of Islam as a peaceful religion is slowly and steadily being spoiled by the Jihadis.

Lookout/Stopperbhai,

>> religions who evolve and reform according to the need of the times.

My post was only against those who constantly point their fingers at the religions of others. As the Bible says, "Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye but fail to see the beam in your own eye?"

mirja

hindu fascists are now all over the world.

they are hindu fascists like sarkozy, belusconi,
geert wilders, angela merkel who are the baddies.
the rss is a joke in comparison. they want that the
afghans and the pakis should come back to the fold.

bhagwat ceo of the rss looks like a school master .
however one never knows. maybe like all hindus he
is also a fascist.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States

while every religion of the world contributed immensely to the better of the mankind no religion is still complete and perfect.while the 4000 year old religion like Hinduism stood the onslaughts of the modern religions like Islam and Christianity are not without imperfections and weaknesses.Hindus never denied that it has not suffered because of its evil caste system.But those religions who evolve and reform according to the need of the times stands to be appreciated and are better than any of those modern religions who are still controlling its followers to remain in the past.
If there are caste evils in Hinduism then there are sectarian evils amongst Christianity to some extent and to the dangerous levels amongst Islam.

Bazeed Mirza
Edinburgh, United Kingdom

If you honestly accept that there are fanatic Muslims then there should not be any shame to accept your accusation that there are Hindu fascists as well.
Have you not heard the so called secular politicians who have been frightening the Muslims ever since independence usually before the elections that if the Muslims vote for the BJP and if the BJP comes to power then they will either drive the Muslims to Pakistan or push them into the Arabian sea.Do you call this as secularism.Today more than the Hindu fascists the peace loving and law abiding Muslims are cursing ,blaming and hating the fellow Muslims who are engaged in terrorism.whats happening in Afghanistan and Pakistan can spill over India too.so the Muslims are to worry more about what is happening inside their world than accuse others as responsible for their woes and ills.
Indians have always felt proud of those outstanding and accomplished Muslims like Azim Premji,many of those Bollywood celebrities, cricketers and tennis stars. The real vicious circle is formed by those vested interests working against the country and who have caste a siege mindset.

SABA NAQVI,

Deoband as its well known is the inspiration behind the Taliban ideology even if Taliban is officially no where in India.What was the necessity for a country's home minister to visit a purely religious congregation of clerics and deliver a speech where he deliberately took the issue of the demolition of Babri structure.This is a clear and well thought out plan or attempt to reassure the Muslims that the Congress is with the Muslims and asking them to come back to its fold in order to regain its lost bastions.Deoband while boasting about often giving calls to protest only against the subject of terrorism but surprisingly it has not come forward clearly,openly and honestly to disown the jihadis in the first place.Nor it has anything to say why the Muslims are increasingly killing the fellow Muslims in the neighboring Pakistan and Afghanistan which may sooner or later spread to India.It has also not criticized Pakistan for accusing India as funding the Taliban.If Deoband was against partition why its not against the separatists in Kashmir who are fighting to force a second partition.
As long as the heavy hand of the clerics or their writs runs over the entire Muslim community its foolish to expect that average Muslim will have a choice to vote according to one's own consciousness.How many of the so called educated and liberal Muslims like you are doing your bit to Indian secularism.Like the clerics and the fanatic Muslims the educated Muslims too are also involved in creating a wedge between the various communities.Are you not posting nine out of your ten stories to dig at the BJP and the Sangha Parivar?. You are boasting yourself as a liberal Muslim unnecessarilly.I haven't seen you ever diging so much at those jihadis,Kashmiri separatists.

Ahmed Imran,
Nothing about IDOL WORSHIPING, "female deities worshiping- Saraswathi, DURGA, Sita, Laxmi, Vishno Devi etc etc-Hindus????

If what you stated about JAZIA is correct why should non-Muslims "feel themselves subdued" while paying a TAX. Do you feel "subdued" while paying Income Tax?? THE BOOK you follow, which is of 7th Century vintage, is so full of contradictions that it can be interpreted to the advantage of any violent ISLAMIC group including TALIBAN.

everyday lot of people get up,with a dread and apprehension that their community will try or is trying to carve out an identity out of their victimisation,thats the biggest challenge.
all these moulvis,uncle toms and sarkaris or politicians are too intellectually challenged to even grasp the magnitude of this,
and given the way hindu fascists are always trying to hem them in,building and reinforcing the siege mindset among the muslims,
a vicious circle,but thats how it is,

my family left vast properties behind in pakistan.
none of us has any regret. we could live under british
rule, harsh but fair.not under or with muslims......

sorry,but your story is the story of hundreds of thousands of people in india and pakistan,i have heard hundreds of stories,but somehow only the punjabis seem to cringe a lot,if you were hounded out by pathan gangs in 1947,you should go back to dreary dismal and exact retribution,if you can.not badmouth a community or their religion.

It has always been said that the attitude of non-Muslim communities towards Islamic rule is a critical and delicate question, which many people hesitate to discuss for fear of causing dissension between Muslims and non-Muslims.

Let us be frank with the Christians of the Islamic East and put to them these questions: What do they fear from the rule of Islam? Are they afraid of the holy texts of Islam or of the manner of their application? As for the provisions, we may quote the Holy Quran (what means): “God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them, for God loves those who are just.” [Quran 60: 8].
And (what means): “The food of the people of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the people of the book” [Quran 5:5].

We should also refer to the general principle in Islamic jurisprudence: “They shall have the same obligations and rights as we”. The Islamic holy texts enjoin Muslims to treat non-Muslims in a kind and fair manner. Apart from the rights and obligations involving worship, they are equal to Muslims with respect to all other rights and obligations related to social life and the rights of citizens. In addition, Islamic faith strives to strengthen the links connecting the non-Muslims to visit them and to eat their food, which is the custom of close friends.

Moreover, Islam tries to make the relationship grow closer by permitting inter-marriage with people of the Book, the strongest social bond, between Muslims and non-Muslims. As to the practical application of the Islamic holy texts, we quote a European Christian, who cannot be accused of bias or prejudice, Sir T.W. Arnold in his book The Preaching of Islam:

“That force was not the determining factor in these conversions, may be judged from the amicable relations that existed between the Christian and the Muslim Arabs. Muhammad himself had entered into treaty with several Christian tribes, promising them his protection and guaranteeing them the free exercise of their religion and to their clergy undisturbed enjoyment of their old rights and authority”. (pp. 47-48).

He goes on to say:

“From the examples given above of the toleration extended towards the Christian Arabs by the victorious Muslims of the first century of the Hijrah and continued by succeeding generations, we may surely infer that those Christian tribes that did embrace Islam, did so of their own choice and free will”. (P.51).

“When the Muslim army reached the valley of Jordan and Abu `Ubaydah pitched his camp at Fihl, the Christian inhabitants of the country wrote to the Arabs, saying: “O Muslims, we prefer you to the Byzantines, though they are of our own faith because you keep better faith with us and are more merciful to us and refrain from doing us injustice and your rule over us is better than theirs, for they have robbed us of our goods and our homed”. (P.55).

He also tells us: “Such was the state of feeling in Syria during the campaign of 633-639 CE in which the Arabs gradually drove the Roman army out of the province. And when Damascus, in 637 CE set the example of making terms with the Arabs, and thus secured immunity from plunder and other favorable conditions, the rest of the cities of Syria were not slow to follow. Emessa, Arethusa, Hieropolis and other towns entered into treaties whereby they became tributary to the Arabs.

Even the patriarch of Jerusalem surrendered the city on similar terms. The fear of religious compulsion on the part of the heretical emperor made the promise of Muslim toleration appear more attractive than the connection with the Roman Empire and a Christian government, and after the first terrors caused by the passage of an invading army, there succeeded a profound revulsion of feeling in favor of the Arab conquerors.” (p.55). This is the evidence given by a Christian scholar on Islam. What is it then that the Christians fear from Islamic rule?

It may be that the Christians are afraid of Muslim fanaticism. If this is true, it seems that they have no idea of what fanaticism is. Here are a few examples of fanaticism. Courts of inquisition set up by the Christian Church were primarily meant to exterminate the Muslims of Spain. The said courts tortured Muslims in a monstrous way, which had never been experienced before. People were burned alive, their fingernails were pulled off, their eyes were put out and their limbs were amputated. This torture was inflicted in order to force the people to change their religion and adopt a particular Christian creed.

Have the Christians of Islamic East ever suffered such treatment?

Massacres are carried out for the extermination of Muslims in Europe, Yugoslavia, Albania, Russia or countries under European rule such as North Africa, Somalia, Kenya, Zanzibar or in other countries like India and Malaya. Such massacres are staged sometimes on the pretext of the purging of ranks and sometimes for the maintenance of peace and security.

Another significant example is the treatment of Muslims in Ethiopia, which has ancient historical, geographical, cultural and religious links with Egypt. It has a mixed population of Muslims and Christians. Although Muslims account for 35 to 65 percent of the total population there is not a single school where Islamic faith or Arabic is taught.

Private schools, which the Muslims open at their own expenses, are subjected to exorbitant taxes and inconveniences that lead to their closing, thus disheartening those who may think of opening new schools. In this way, Islamic teaching is confined to a primitive way of teaching.

Until very recently – just before the Italian invasion – a Muslim who could not pay a debt to his Christian creditor was taken in slavery by the Ethiopian Christians. The Muslim was caught, sold and tortured within sight of the government. It goes without saying that there is not a single Muslim in the cabinet or in any key post to represent one-third of the population. Have the Christians of the Islamic world ever experienced such a treatment? Would they accept reciprocal treatment?

That is real fanaticism.

The Communists believe that the real existence of man is essentially an economic existence. If so, have the Christians living in Islamic countries ever been denied the right to acquire and dispose of property or to amass wealth? Have they ever been denied, on account of their religious belief, the right to have education, to join public service or promotion to higher public posts?

As for the moral and spiritual existence, it should be stressed that the Christians living under Islamic rule have never been subjected to any form of religious persecution -- with the exception of the very rare incidents engendered by the British colonialists for sowing dissension and diversion. It is alleged that the imposition of tribute on non-Muslims is the result of religious discrimination. The best refutation of this baseless accusation lies in the words of T.W. Arnold, who says: “On the other hand, when the Egyptian peasants, although Muslim in faith, were made exempt from military service, a tax was imposed upon them as on the Christians in lieu thereof”.

“As stated above, the Jizyah was levied on the able-bodied males, in lieu of the military service they would have been called upon to perform had they been Musalmans; and it is very noticeable that when any Christian people served in the Muslim army, they were exempted from the payment of this tax. Such was the case with the tribe of al-Jurajimah, a Christian tribe in the neighborhood of Antioch, who made peace with the Muslims, promising them to be their allies and fight on their side in battle, on condition that they should not be called upon to pay Jizyah and should receive their proper share of the booty”.

From this it is clear that the imposition of tribute is not the result of any religious discrimination. The truth is that the tribute was imposed on all those who did not take part in military service regardless of their religious belief. It would be useful to refer in this respect to the following Holy verse (which means): “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued”. [Quran 9: 29].

It should be pointed out that this verse refers to non-Muslims who wage war against Islam. It does not apply to the non-Muslims living in Islamic countries.

In conclusion, I should like to warn that the seeds of dissention between Muslims and non-Muslims living in Islamic countries are sown by colonialists as well as by Communists. The Communist devils address each community in accordance with its particular aspirations.

They address the working classes saying: “If you adopt Communism we shall hand over all factories to you”; while speaking to peasants, they promise to give them the lands. On talking to unemployed graduates they say: “If you become Communists you will get the jobs that fit in with your qualifications”.

As for the youth suffering from sexual repression, the Communists promise them a free society, where every one can act as one likes without intervention by law or subjection to traditions. The Communists address Christians in the following manner: “If you adopt Communism we shall destroy Islam, the religion that discriminates among people on account of their religion”. However, the Quran says (what means): “It is a grievous thing that comes from their mouths as a saying, for, what they say is nothing but falsehood” [Quran 18: 5].

It cannot be said that Islam distinguishes among people on account of their religion, because Islam confers the essential rights on all people without any distinction. Islam brings all people together on a purely human basis and at the same time guarantees them absolute freedom to adopt the religion of their choice, under its own care and protection.

Besides, as the Christians of the East are also anxious to retain their historical links with Muslims and protect their mutual interests, let us hope that they would not listen to these propagandists or dissenters.

---Well please let us know the Verse in quran which needs a revision And I challenge you will find none----
Ahmed Imran
Chennai,

Commence with "Surah 4/117 - The Pagans call upon female deities..... They call upon Satan". Remember Hindus pray to goddesses. "Surah 9/30- Christians call Christ son of God...... Allahs curse be on them"- must be not liked by Xians. Then Surah 8/12,Surah 9/1 to 5, Surah 9/29, Surah 47/4 etc etc. When finished these can reply.

The Burkha issue is really a complicated one. The advice of wearing Burkha comes from the family first. The families with orthodox values in both rural and urban areas usually suggest their female family members to wear Burkha. The thought mainly comes from religion, sense of decency (the way they perceive it), possessiveness etc. If you ask a Muslim girl about her feelings, interestingly you’ll get a mixed opinion on wearing a Burkha.

Some women wear Burkha out of complete religious belief. Some will say, I feel comfortable and secured with a Burkha (social security is very low infested with thugs, unemployed rakes, eve teasers etc. in this part of the world) and surprisingly the number with affirmative answers is very high. Other ground for such an answer is entirely related to their psyche. From a girl’s childhood, she is taught in a way that her body is very delicate; she should hide every part of it to keep away from utter embarrassment. So from her childhood she becomes ultra-sensitive about her body with an undue sense of shame for having a body different from the male members of her family. And she begins to try very hard to hide her body in every way she can. Burkha is an easy answer for that. She wears it with a sigh of relief. Slowly it becomes the part of her life.

However, some will say desperately, they need a desperado who can bring them back their freedom!

mirja

i am not impressed by the fair colour or aqualine
features of moslims, or anyones elses.

my family originated from dera ismail khan in pakistan. lady mountbatten once said to my aunt,
that she had stayed there for a few months,and called
it dreary dismal khan.

my family thanks to the britts were land owners.
we hade pathans share croppers, and a member of the
bagai parivar owned a transport company ferrying
passengers and goods over all of the frontier province.

above all the men at least went to university in
lahore, and others to britain.

i am now trying to get hold of books written by muslims
from india or pakistan. i have read a book by ghisauddin ardar, and found it to be dreary,dismal
and bigoted. there are few muslim writers other the salman rushdie who are well known.however i will keep
trying.

there is a lack of intellectualism in muslim society because they are unable to respect any views contrary
to their religion. some journalists in pakistan are
very well read, but they are just a handful.

islam and muslims are alienated from the entire nonmuslim world. every continent,every country has
had bad experiences of muslim liveing there.

hindus in india are in fact more tolerant then the french, dutch or germans.

my question to muslims. with their unique views on society eg preference for sharia laws, a lower status
for wome, bias against nonmuslims, and societal norms such as being antiart and music, alchohol, why in heck
do they expect to mix with others,who have contrary
standards.

this problem i suppose is more present in muslims who
have a certain connection to the western world. they
live with a dilemna of choseing between west and east,
as illustrated in e.mfosters book " passage to India"

this choice can be only one or the other.its usually
islam.stick to it, and dont bother about the views of
others. nonmuslims are aware of this. this makes them sceptical about muslims. who wants to be friends with those who change with the direction of religious
sentiments.

my family left vast properties behind in pakistan.
none of us has any regret. we could live under british
rule, harsh but fair.not under or with muslims.

you can see for yourself the rule of islam which has followed it. it is a disaster. i feel sorry for the
muslims who now live there.

some members of the family have visied dera and been well recieved. many now live in the grand houses we
left behind.

we have no bitterness, or regret,just acceptance of
reality and its changeability.i have a desire to live with like minded people. is there anything strange about this.if there are muslims in this category then i will be delighted to meet them.

recently i wrote to the afghan embassy to arrange a
exhibition about their country in copenhagen. i am
waiting for their response, which does not seem very
likely at present.

Pinaki S Ray,

>> Wearing of burkhas thus prevents the intake of Vitamin D ...
>> I would therefore call upon all the right thinking Muslims to rebel against the decree of wearing Burkhas, and bring their women folk out in the open.

I whole heartedly agree that all right thinking people should rebel against decree/compulsion/force etc to wearing Burkhas (regardless of whether Vitamin-D is a problem or not - the issue is much more than just Vitamin D). One may freely chose to wear it for whatever reason one pleases, but there cannot be force/compulsion/attacks etc.

Ahmad Pasha,

>> In a world of Hedonism, people who speak of morality, chastity , modesty and fedility are always singled out and hated.

May be. But one may also be "singled out and hated" for violating the rights/justice of others (like how Islamists do). Make sure that you are not in that category and make sure that you condemn those who fall in that category.

To Akhil,
Well please let us know the Verse in quran which needs a revision And I challenge you will find none . If you still want proof you please get to see the debate between Zakir Naik and Dr.William Cambell " The Quran and the bible in the light of Science And further more please visit "http://mustaqeem.wo...ology-in-the-quran/" "http://www.quranand...ology-in-quran.html" to see what Dr.Keith Moore a renowned Doctor in the field of Embroyology has to say about Quranic excerpts on Embroyology . when we say God Almighty is perfect his law should also be perfect.

Akil,

>> are you willing to agree that there are verses in QUR'AN .... ISLAM is not a perfect religion

Controversial verses in the Bible, the Torah, the Hindu scriptures and the Quran are either sidelined or reinterpreted. There is no perfect religion. It is difficult for shakha graduates to be broadminded.

Abhijit
Oxford, United States

It seems by reading your post that you are objecting to me for raising the issue of Vitamin D deficiency and wearing burqas by women.

Why don't you state clearly your objections instead of beating about the bush by bringing in water scarcity and what not ?

That will enable me to address your concern properly, otherwise just get lost !

Ahmad Pasha (United States) writes:

1. "So the more you expose, the more Vit D you get."

2. "Do you or your family meembers follow the same prescription?" -

Here are my responses to the above questions:

1. I do not know the scientific results for this. So I am unable to answer. But I do not apply naive logic as evident in stating this question. Presumably, there will be a cut-off threshold beyond which the body cannot absorb any more Vit D from exposure to Sun.

2. To my knowledge, Hindu women do not wear burqas. So this question is meaningless.

I should again point out that what I wrote on Mr Ghai's observation is not my research, it is noted in Western Medical Practitioners' findings on Arabic Muslim women. I have lost the exact source, but it must be traceable in Medicine Net or in some other medical journals.

Finally, I take this opportunity to note that I am really baffled at the Arabic Muslim world in this context since on one hand burqas are imposed on women, and on the other belly dancing by women is rampant there too !

Took Hindus 4000 years to deal with sati and untouchability! Religions proceed at their own pace.
Anwaar, Dallas

ANWAAR, are you willing to agree that there are verses in QUR'AN which needs re-look and that ISLAM is not a perfect religion. If either can't be accepted, another 8000 years will see "some people" stuck at 7th Century.

Akil,

>>>> All religions started as backward, and evolved over the centuries ----- Anwaar, Dallas
>> Unfortunately that evolution isn't happening everywhere.

Took Hindus 4000 years to deal with sati and untouchability! Religions proceed at their own pace.

-- partition could have been avoided if the cabinet mission plan was approved,who sabotaged it?--
Bazeed Mirza

Can name of the "people who subotaged it" be given please. Would like to thank them. Had partition NOT occurred, what is presently happening in Pakistan would have been happening in INDIA- THE BIG UNDIVIDED INDIA. "Any takers for that"????????

--- All religions started as backward, and evolved over the centuries ----- Anwaar, Dallas

Unfortunately that evolution isn't happening everywhere. Some are insisting on staying in the 7TH CENTURY and living by a book written then.

-- until first half of last century Hindus were burning their women alive in the name of religion and Sati.-- Abhijit, Oxford

It has changed, hasn't it. More importantly, Hindus accept that there are many more areas which need change- "that Hinduism is not perfect". But a group of people insisting that they are "perfect because of something stated in 7th Century" and insisting that "all others need to change" to suit them, is the major irritant and source of all the conflict in the present day world.

we can accept your words seriously.
they are opportunitic......

who is WE,take a walk bro,you have really started suffering from delusions of grandeur

i find the unintellectual, bigoted mindset of many muslims unattractive. i suppose.......

it could even be the opposite,or maybe you suffer from a complex of the aquiline features and fairer skin which many of the muslims have and you dont,
from your writings i can make out yournt an iyer from pallakad,
you havent met any muslims or socialised with any,,and remember doosron par ungli uthane se pehlay apney gireybaan main jhankna chahiye,u heard of this old adage.


out hindus and christians from their country. the
kashmiri muslims have done the same.....
what have you done with dalits and christians,you remember dara who burnt graham staines and his two small sons alive.and you are stupid to think that the actions of extremists can or will not be condemned by any right thinking person.

one by stephen cohen about pakistan, and by m.j.akbar about muslims.........
i can figure out your favorite is ; we and and our nationhood defined by golwalkar,try reading sartre,raymond aron or tariq ali for a change.get over this freudian fixation of muslims and islam that you have.
get a life,this money you get for putting this posts will do you no good,

Happy Ram,

>> But your Deobandi Maulvies ....

Your stupid interjection ignores the fact that your own vindictive and hateful mind is closer to that maulvi mentality than you think.

Gayatri/Lalit,

>> i think islam is a backward religion.

All religions started as backward, and evolved over the centuries. It is a continuous process. Your remarks show your own backwardness, but with this difference. You will never evolve.

abhijit

its a matter of views and choice.

i find the unintellectual, bigoted mindset of many muslims unattractive. i suppose i would not try and be friendly with other communities as well,in india or abroad.

however i would not be critical of you if you chose to be specially friendly with muslims. i can say onething.

one has to be very careful when dealing with muslims. they are extremely sensitive about their religion, and just a careless remark can put them of.

i do not know of hindus and muslims mixing socially with each other in india or britain. do muslims make
any effort to meet others.

in denmark,sweden and norway most muslims stay apart.
i dont blame them. its natural to want to associate
with like minded people. furthermore people prefer
to stay away from people whose life style is very different.

mirza

i am sure you are aware of how pakistani,s have driven
out hindus and christians from their country. the
kashmiri muslims have done the same.

do you think that we can accept your words seriously.
they are opportunitic. i have never read you criticise
the absolutely disgraceful behaviour of your fellow
muslims. you may be a nice chap, but you can not expect us to give up our opinions of your community because you say so.

write in the pakistani press and ask them to abolish the laws of blasphemy. tell them to stop burning christian schools,and burying women alive.

private people can be friends across various frontiers. this does not apply to communities
most muslims will agree with this.

your language shows a lack of good upbringing,and intolerance of views which you find inconvenient.

i am reading 2 books. one by stephen cohen about pakistan, and by m.j.akbar about muslims.

have you read them . i suppose not.

Gayatri Devi
I am really intrigued by your remarks can you please give us the sources of ur claims...
and dont point fingers for violence... if muslims are treating their women as secondary citizens, until first half of last century Hindus were burning their women alive in the name of religion and Sati.
If separation is the only way out then there can be endless separations. In this fight and separation someone else will win.

mirza

you have read an account of what jinnah said in the
excerpts from time magazine 1946. if muslims can speak openly with derision about hindus, as pakistani,s do and without hesitation , and as muslims do in this forum then you should be able to accept my views as well.

so far muslims haveing speaking against the kaffirs and infidels. however they get extremely angry when they get payed back. however i am not trying to pay back. i believe that we have a war of civilisation between islam and the nonmuslim world. this is a fairly
respectable theory. my view is that we should avoid this war by disengageing from each other.

geert wilders is on a trip to usa and has shown his film fitna to the us senate. this will be shown in the house of lords as well.

its noteworthy that you defend your intolerant religion, and your violent and bigoted community instead of condemning them. this is no part of my duty.

i propose neutrality and a polite disengagement.
that is the general opinion of many people in the
nonmuslim world and even more so in the islamic world.
dont pretend that you dont know.

muslims have never been comfortable liveing with hindus........

just add that yes they were or never will be comfortable with venal people like you especially who have a corroded sense of politics ethics and morality,dont worry about others,muslims hindus sikh etc will continue to live,meet and intermarry whether you like it or not,
you can continue to bark abuse at others and be abused in return since youre getting paid for it,otherwise if you had an iota of self esteem or respect you would have shut up a long time back.

Pinaki
1. Non veg consumes 16000 ltrs of water for each Kg and in the time of global water crisis it is not advisable to waste this quantity of water on something that is not necessary.
2. No eating non veg is not about necessary proteins and other blah blah... I would wonder any of us need to do the things gladiators had to do... if not then we dont need non veg since gladiators were prohibited from flesh eating.
3. And about the Shravan... in this duartion there is a constant rain and sun fluctuation which leads to easy bacterial infection, well thats why nonvege consumption and shaving or hair cutting was prohibited... i m sure it has nothing to do with religion ... just a knowledge

Gayatri Devi
I really appreciate your feelings on the topic and ur but though your sincerity is more like an honest patriot, your extremism is is like the Jamait-e-Ulema Hind representatives...
Word Hindu apart from all religious patents (or disowning) represent the race thrived along Sindhu river and its tributaries. The geography and climate have given us physical features.. and I know we all know that.
my point is that, we are kept away from this word which says that we are all one race, sprouted from one great geography.
Religion has screwed us all... just subtract that part from India and Pakistan and we will be probably the most powerful country there will be.
now how does it looks from the global perspective,
Saudi's new found oil money has given it a chance to become Global power by exploiting the religion, it is constantly pumping money into Afghanistan and Pakistan to promote religious extremism. Out of this Pakistan today has the largest slum in Asia. here you have the army of hungry illiterate souls ready for battle or to construct skyscrapers in UAE. This cheap labour which is rigorously exploited has raised most of UAE.
on the second side is China. well its ideas are pretty clear. for last half century it has kept is economy in top gear by selling off its resources. it is building one thermal power station every week. on the other hand india has invested in its knowledge based sectors.
now while resources can not be endlessly consumed both these superpowers (UAE and China) are trying to capitalize on the time and power in hand. UAE by promoting religion (the recent surge in Pakistan and now in India) and by doing strategic genocide of Pakistan. China, by supporting Pakistan Military obviously because if India falls they practically own the continent.
we are mere scapegoats of the global political drama... we are blinded by religion... and it is going to take us right to the bottom if we dont wake up now...
almighty god dosent need patent of religion, there is nothing he is capable of he is omni present, there is no place we can hide from him he is omni present, he is not only the owner of everything but he resides in everything. there fore he is worth praising in his every form.

In a world of Hedonism, people who speak of morality, chastity , modesty and fedility are always singled out and hated.

Pinaki,

"Vitamin D is absorbed by the body in normal course of life from exposure to the Sun.

So the more you expose, the more Vit D you get.
Do you or your family meembers follow the same prescription?

mirza

it does not matter what gandhi, nehru or jinnah said.

history is shaped by people. muslims have never been comfortable liveing with hindus, and viceversa. none
of the two is to blame.

we can see it today as well. hindus feel baffled by tens of thousands of muslims with skull caps, beards collected to offer namaz, or protest about some religious issue. we find it strange to see women in shuttle cock burqas, in this day and age. the customs
of muslims killing goats on the front gate is simply
horrendous. muslims are liveing in the past, and their
way of doing things is just stone age. no modern society can have flint stone characters liveing inside
it.

the great thing is that muslims prefer to live in their own societies. how they live there is no issue
for others.the problem is when they live in nonmuslim
societies. there is no need to elucidate on this point.

the prophet himself commanded his followers to live
in darul islam, and not take nonmuslims as friends.
its practical advice. we have have had no war of civilisations if this had been followed.there is now
general acceptance that multiethnic societies have failed.

Pinaki,

"Vitamin D is absorbed by the body in normal course of life from exposure to the Sun. Wearing of burkhas thus prevents the intake of Vitamin D, and that report specifically pointed to the "Burkhas" in the Muslim world for the deficiency."

Interesting. Actually as told by my muslim friend, the burkha and skull was primarily designed to avoid exposure to sun in intense heat of deserts. I am not sure about validity of his claim. May be Anwar can shed some light. It would not make sense in the countries like UK or USA. I certainly knew lot of hindu customs that many people follow has some historic reasoning that may not be valid in current period ( e.g. not eating non-veg during month of shravan)

Now here is something credible which proves that Jinnah was just an hate preacher with no vision for future.........

just because nehru had a visceral hatred of jinnah or suffered from an inferiority complex doesnt mean their versions are true,while jinnah has been detected as aloof person not mingling with the masses his first recorded public meeting was at the radhabhai chawl in bombay alongside tilak in 1905 or 06,long before nehru had entered the scene,

Did Gandhi or Nehru ever spew venom against Muslims like this prophet of South Asian Muslims did .........

why was jinnah called ambassador of hindu muslim unity or muslim gokhale,if he was communal how could he get along with gokhale and tilak,so much so tilak and him used to be on the same stage and share platforms.what happened after gandhi and nehru came into the fray,
gandhis basic fault in jinnahs words was to bring religious mobilisation and symbolism into politics and derision of rule of law which he envisaged wouldnt be good for the future of a nation state,with the criminalisation of politics and state sponsored pogroms on minorities occuring even today his words do ring true.
jinnahs greatness lies in that he had a vision of india,a united india which he thought could be achieved using constitutional means,he was great because today the worst of his ideological detractors like jaswant singh can objectively point out his vision,this was a person who defended bhagat singh and his actions in the constituent assembly,did nehru or gandhi do that,no because they saw bhagat singh as a leadership threat.

that even after 60 years they have failed to see the fruits of tree, Jinnah planted.......

what about other trees that were planted,why is there a war in kashmir?
,because the people were politically disenfranchised over the years,reason its a muslim state,even though the leadership of kashmiri muslims cast their lot with nehru and hounded out jinnah.why there are pogroms in india,if its secular?why does godhra and orissa or delhi riots have to occur,
its more to do with vision,jinnah knew this would happen sooner or later,he changed his aims,read the book,you will find out,partition could have been avoided if the cabinet mission plan was approved,who sabotaged it?

After reading comments of Muslims here one things is dead sure. They want and will live in denial. Forever.

No wonder when everyday deadly bombs go off why large number of Muslims dies.

""read jaswant singhs book on jinnah,you will come to know who led him to do what he did""

So now Jaswant's writing has become most sacred words for you like Quran's words? Right?

Sometime I am amazed by the blind belief of South Asian Muslims for Jinnah being so nice, that even after 60 years they have failed to see the fruits of tree, Jinnah planted.

Now here is something credible which proves that Jinnah was just an hate preacher with no vision for future.

It's TIME magazine archive which no one cane deny. Here it goes.

"He boasted that if his followers joined Gandhi's pacifist program, the British would have 500 times more trouble "because we have 500 times more guts than the Hindus." He recalled past glories of the Mogul Emperor Baber ("The Tiger") and other Moslem warriors: "The Moslems have been slaves for only 200 years but the Hindus have been slaves for a thousand."

http://www.time.com/...171,792780-4,00.html

"I want to eat the cow the Hindu worships. . . . The Moslem has nothing in common with the Hindu except his slavery to the British."

http://www.time.com/...171,792780-4,00.html

Did Gandhi or Nehru ever spew venom against Muslims like this prophet of South Asian Muslims did ?

Hey George from London post#10 ... Touche

MR GHAI (Mumbai) interestingly wirtes:

"... The Jamiat has asked Muslim men to ensure "sisters, wives and mothers wear burqa", ...".

I should note in this context that I surprisingly came across a Medicine Report somewhere in the Western Media (it should be traceable in the WEB or in medical journals) that in the Arabic countries the women severely suffer from low Vitamin D in their bodies which lead to bone related and other fatal diseases.

Vitamin D is absorbed by the body in normal course of life from exposure to the Sun. Wearing of burkhas thus prevents the intake of Vitamin D, and that report specifically pointed to the "Burkhas" in the Muslim world for the deficiency.

I would therefore call upon all the right thinking Muslims to rebel against the decree of wearing Burkhas, and bring their women folk out in the open.

But your Deobandi Maulvies egged by you people are simply talking like Jinnah.....

read jaswant singhs book on jinnah,you will come to know who led him to do what he did.

"You are a sick guy. Badmouthing Muslims seems to be your full time activity. Get a life!"
Anwaar

Lalit may be badmouthing Muslims or stating truth but that is inconseqencal .But your Deobandi Maulvies egged by you people are simply talking like Jinnah .Beware they will make India another Pakistan or Somalia.

>> The Jamiat has asked Muslim men to ensure "sisters, wives and mothers wear burqa",

AKGHAI

Burqa was almost unknown in Chennai. But of late we get to see it more often and even the the families of liberal Muslims are going in for it. A muslim doctor created a ruckus some months back when she insisted on wearing burqa in a Chennai corporate hospital against the wishes of management. Which management would like to appoint another muslim doctor when such unnecessary issues take front seat?

Till recently Tamilnadu muslims have been a well integrated lot with hardly any distinct characteristics to put them apart from the majority and TN was almost free of communal riots till they occurred in Coimbatore a decade ago.

I see Tamil Muslims drifting away gradually to assert an identity, which I am afraid, is not good in the long run for peace. The Muslim business community in Chennai has been so well entrenched and integrated that hardly anyone bothered whether he was a muslim or otherwise when dealing with them. But this new found assertion by showing distinct Muslim identity will surely cast a negative shadow and bound to create tensions bcz it will not end with burqa.

Inspite of all your criticism why do people still embrace islam from the advanced countries

Ahmed Imran
Chennai,

The reason is that ISLAM insist that accepting Islam destroys all sins which come before it. So the people of advanced countries involved in crime and sin convert to ISLAM to wash off all those sins!!! Something like "nau sau chuhe khakar billi hajj ko chale!!!!!

Instead of addressing the problem or answering the question straightaway , you are beating about the bush to make your mockery of Muslims and islam as something logical . Inspite of all your criticism why do people still embrace islam from the advanced countries . The world is taking a double standard in dealing with the crimes committed by Muslim and Non Muslim . As i said earlier if a 40 year old Muslim marries a 16year old girl that comes in the News paper as a head line, whereas if a 50 year old Non Muslim rapes a 6 year old girl it is printed somewhere in the remote corner of the news paper. Why is this double standard . All these while i have simply used the word "Non Muslims" even though I know for sure there are Hindu extremists (Hope the others also know) who are plotting a possible genocide of any other racial groups living in India, Still i do not want to generalise all the Hindus in that category because i know for sure that there are some very good Hindus who take strong disliking towards such action. "Let not the disliking towards some race make you deal with that race unjustly " We are bound by such a beautiful phrase .

I leave you with this phrase "Truth stands out clear from the Error". Hope you will see it someday .

faruki

i think islam is a backward religion, and you are a
backward guy for being a follower of the same.

this is my view in essence. its not to hurt you.

you must hate watching tv, reading the news, because
it is on the lines of my thinking.

you must be a real dense character not to sense the
enormous disapproval of muslims all over the world.
one of your tactics is to deny that it exists. secondly if it exists it is because of hate for islam and muslims. you will never acknowledge that there are
good reasons for the daily attacks on muslims. many
come from muslim journalists themselves.

"ghanni kharab jaat che" as mr cowasjee write from
dawn in karrachi. he keeps on regretting why pakistan has gone to the dogs. m.j.akbar say that muslms are a sick limb. he does not suggest any cure for the same.

the explanation is simple.you know it, and thats why you live in usa.

dont you feel a bit of discomfort seeing the tens of
thousands of muslims wearing skull caps and beards.
not a woman in sight. thats islam in a nut shell.

imran

it is futile to debate with you.

you are a thoroughly brain washed muslim, who is unable to face reality.

for this you can only blame yourself. the status of muslims in most western countries is dismal and dubious. they are often high in crime and low in education. you can look at statistics yourself.

get these from wikepedia for france, britain , holland.
whilst britain and australia invite indian students to choose them for studies, muslim students from pakistan are refused visas. denmark is going so far as to encourge voluntary repatriation for muslims immigrants.

all this is seen on tv, written in the press, and spoken of in political and social circles.

you people are impervious to the obvious truth, and respond by denying that anything is wrong or complain of islamophobia. the west has dropped its discrimination of chinese , japanese , indians,
but the bias against muslims is growing every day.
politicians in the west are trying hard to stop this growing dislike of muslims, but it is not working too
well.

whilst i welcome modern and liberal muslims, i do not
wish to have anything to do with the conservative group. that is why i think formation of pakistan was
a sensible move by jinnah. it should have been carried
forward to the logical end. muslims who wish to live
apart according to sharia should have moved to pakistan, or now be given self rule in areas where
they are concentrated.

pakistan is a country slowly destroying itself. you
have been stopped by following their example by the
majority of nonmuslims who live in india.

if you were really honest you should move to a muslim country. why do you want to be a unwelcome person in
a nonmuslim country. send us a card from saudi arabia.

What the Home Minister of the Secular Govt of India and the Secular Congress was doing in Deoband where the following decisions took place :

Sultan Shain has written boldly in New Age Islam on following three main issues :

1.'The Jamiat also reiterated its opposition to the government's efforts to provide millions of bonded madrasa students an option to join the mainstream of society by acquiring knowledge and skills other than that of becoming a muezzin or an Imam of a mosque '

2.The Jamiat has asked Muslim men to ensure "sisters, wives and mothers wear burqa", and do not bring "disrepute to the community". Endorsing Jamiat's archaic thinking, a number of ulema told the large Muslim gathering that a woman's status in society should be "secondary and subdued".

3.'It also repeated, completely unnecessarily, its earlier fatwa against Muslims singing Vande Mataram, half a century after the issue was settled.'The issue was settled by Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad who deleted a few words from the Vande Matram objectionable to Muslims .

Deoband Maulvies have only retreated that Muslims are poles apart from the rest of the Indians and they can't fit in main stream of India.

How are these Maulvies different from Jinnah ??


The link :

http://www.newageisl....aspx?ArticleID=2077

DC (New York) states:

"Ethnic, cultural and linguistic identities are equally important - else Pakistani Muslims could never see a Muslim Republic named Bangladesh." -

WRONG !!!

BANGLADESH is not named as an "Islamic Republic" according to its constitution - it is simply the "Republic of Bagladesh".

For the Bengali Muslims their Muslim identity has been far dominating in their psyche than their Bengali identity - in fact, I would say the Bengali character irrelevant so far as religious belif is concerned.

This is bourne out by the fact that they were the instigators of breking out of the Indian Republic historically in 1947, and join hands with the Punjabi Muslims to form Pakistan. There is no point of blaming the British for this. They started killing Bengali Hindus in Calcutta and then all over East Pakistan in the intervening years which led to the refugee mass-influx in West Bengal!

It was poetic justice to the Bengali Muslims when they got their hell from the Pakistani authorities. That made them slowly realize that they could not survive without the help from their Hindu brethrens. I wish the Pakis had given them even more hell for realizing what they themselves did to the Bengali Hindus living in that part of undivided Bengal.

I hold the view now that Bangladesh would not be able to survive on its own in the long run of history. In some form or other they will have to merge with India diluting their Muslim character.

Gayatri ,
Please define your freedom for women , then we will say whether islam prohibits Women to have that freedom , Islam calls for Moderate way of dressing and if you notice even the Nun in Churches dress moderately , But no one criticises or wear magnifying glasses to put a blme on them. Islam places a greater responsibility in Women that is to raise Children , Install good values in them because as Islam says goodly tree which bears goodly fruit . Look at the crime rates commintted by these Teens and youths, Thier lives are falling apart by Drugs , pornography, Sodomy and et al. These crimes were much less a decade ago , As you say that world is progressing the crime rate is also going up. do you think that this is something commendable ? Don't you think we are witnessing culture deterioration by the name of modernity . The child learns so much from her Parents, It is the sole responsibility of the parents to instill good values in thier children. For avoidance of Doubt ,Islam does not prohibit women folk from being educated and the clssic example is Prophet mohammed Sal's wife Ayesha (on Whom may Allah is pleased ) Much of the hadeeth is collected from the source of Ayisha (on whom Allah is pleased) . This is only addressed to those who are open to the truth and let not their hearts and minds prejudiced. It is certainly not addressed to some of the perverted transgressors who stubbornly refuses to see the Truth.

Photograph captures all . Disgusted Madani the Head Deoband Seminary is even ashamed to look at Chidambram's face who is seeking Madani's blessings.

Gayatri/Lalit,

>> "i dont hate muslims."

You are obsessed with Muslims and Islam. You are a sick guy. Badmouthing Muslims seems to be your full time activity. Get a life!

faruki

the purpose of polls is to generalise.

this is useful. how else can one form an opinion of
people. most informed pakis say that their community
is bigoted, ignorant and violent.

you were just born into a religion, and you will defend it just because of this.

faruki

i dont hate muslims.

i like a few whom i know. i deplore your stubborn
dedication to a very archaic,backward and anti modernistic religion.

i had a thoughtful moment today, and realised how all
old systems tried to block change. kings and dictators
hate democracy, maulvis and other religious leaders
hate modernity, and many men wish to dominate their
families and especially women, in the name of propriety. gosh how medieval.

islam, the maulvis, muslim men are scared of freedom
and modernity. they are scared that if women are given a choice they will choose freedom, and a new life.

many muslims in this forum here pretend that women prefer to be at home, looking after their men and kids.
it is not so. girls wanna have fun. its not just for
maccho men.

mehemmet your great beloved prophet is known to have said the following.

a womans paradise is under her husbands feet.

i saw hell and it was full of women.

no wonder muslim men are infatuated with islam. however
stupid a man may be ,he is still superior to women.

read the books "my feudal lord "and "inside the kingdom"

you guys despately want to believe in your religion, where as all others have left theirs behind.

muslims in usa are suspected ,feared and disliked, and
its naive and childish of you to pretend that it is not so. islam and muslims will face criticism for the
next many decades. only political correctness has made
europeans less then forthright in speaking up.

you should side with the critics, but instead you believe wrongfully that supporting the conservative
elements is doing the right thing. thats a case of
loyalty vs progress.

congrats Saba for correctly projecting the image of the so called champions of the largest miniority "Muslims" as sarkari mussalman. Everybody who has some knowledge about the system knows how chairmanship is conferred to certain Sarkari Musalman . be it any miniority commission or other institutions.Why these muslim cleric always try to dig up old issue which leads to hatred in the minds of majority against their own.

Gayatri/Lalit,

>> there is nothing amiss about my statement of how the
world in general thinks of muslims.

The very idea that "the world in genral" has opinions about any community is dumb. Your reading on the subject is very selective, and you over-generalize based on the adverse views of the writers that you select. Your hatred is something that feeds on itself.

saba

in the dark ,pc would look like a white ghost.

why do indian politicians dress so badly.

these guys are the worst crooks, but dress to look like the common man.

a first step to modernisation would be to buy a pair
of jeans, and a pair of good shoes. they are a god damned disgraced.

some one should arrange a fashion show for these slimey nit wits. one also for the mullahs.

I donot think any hindu reads or cares about it....

its like confucius among chinese nobody reads him but itembedded into the whole subconscious of a people.

Interesting that you read manusmriti......

though my favorite is the gita,feels of an exalted sufis sermon,same words and concepts.

i dont know what manu smriti is.
it sounds dumb......

come on its your jurispudence book,a book of laws,its ur sharia.you cant be that dumb.

Mirza,

"animals,drums,illiterates,low castes and women are worthy of being beaten.

these are quotes from manusmriti:"

Where did you read these quotes ? Interesting that you read manusmriti. I donot think any hindu reads or cares about it.

To understand how the tolerant Islam is dealing with conservative Islam in transforming Indonesia's society read "Facing Down the Fanatics-A more tolerant Islam is confronting extremism in the world's most populous Muslim country" published in the National Geographic magazine in October 2009:

http://ngm.nationalg...ndonesia/finkel-text

It is difficult to predict whether conservative Islam that has rigid interpretation of the world eventually unseats more tolerant versions of Islam in all Muslim societies. That may satisfy the conservatives with a vision of a global Islam ummah but will spell a doom for a harmonious relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims.
If fanaticism raises its ugly face and threatens all non-Muslims seeking references from religious texts, it will only alienate Muslims from the non-Muslim world.
Those of you who are debating whether Islam is superior or inferior to other religions should actually focus on how to manage religious harmony.
Religious identity is only one of the many identities humans have . Ethnic, cultural and linguistic identities are equally important - else Pakistani Muslims could never see a Muslim Republic named Bangladesh.
In a world that is already conflict ridden practice of religious tolerance is all the more important to make it more liveable. That calls for more liberal interpretation of scripture and avoiding inhuman practices that are otherwise justified by religious scriptures(e.g. enacting Islamic laws to deny religious rights of all Kafirs, launching jehad to kill innocents etc.).
Let's watch how the future unfolds.

Saba,

"But it is a combination of ignorance and deep cynicism that is actually behind the legitimacy India’s secular politicians have bestowed on the Muslim clergy."

A good article from Saba. But interestingly she still calls these politicians secular. Why should they be ?

mirza

i dont know what manu smriti is.

it sounds dumb.

gayatri/agarwal/akil

animals,drums,illiterates,low castes and women are worthy of being beaten.

these are quotes from manusmriti,

And it faced low ebb only after the liberals were replaced with conservatives who were looking only at old scriptures to resolve all the challenges modernity posed.......

mr.agarwal have u seen the movie bandit queen,

Akil
Bangalore, India

Behind the death and destruction are those who are going to benefit out of it.

It may be India, Israel, Iran, US, the ex-communists and may be some tribal rivalries.

DC, New York >>> "Remember Islam dominated global civilizations when the Muslim scholars were pursuing knowledge in different spheres of activities, exchanging views or borrowing knowledge from other civilizations and cultures.

And it faced low ebb only after the liberals were replaced with conservatives who were looking only at old scriptures to resolve all the challenges modernity posed. The key issue no longer was the quest for knowledge but the argument whether something is interpreted Islamic or un-Islamic.

And such archaic views often are at variance with the modern world. For example Sania Mirza is a talented tennis player, but if she is judged by the kind of un-Islamic clothes she wears on tennis courts and not by her tennis then there is a problem."

very well written DC ... one wonders why hasn't Darul Ullum fatwaed the belly-dancing (popular entertainment among Arabs performed by both sexes) yet ?????

imran

if you look at the numbers of people in jail, then muslims are at the very top.

25 percent in denmark, and same numbers in france.
same in india.

india has dawood ibrahim, chota shakeel, mohammed telgi and lots of mid level gangsters. the poor women
are docile and keep running between the kitchen and the bedroom.

i dont know about the food served but the population keeps growing. islam is the fastest growing religion
in the world.

allah be praised

>>unlike the children of educated western mothers, we do not find so many delinquint children among the Muslims.<<

Ahmad Pasha

Strapping bomb on the body and exploding in market place killing MUSLIMS, which is explicitly prohibited in QUR'AN, I presume is due to the exceedingly good upbringing of Muslim Children. Oh yah, they go straight to Jannat, don't they??? So it just has to do with the Islamic way of bringing up children.

So why Gayatri is out for a Muslim bashing as if someone is paying you for it?......

must be a baniya anyway.

Today a MP was assaulted in Mharashtra assembly for taking the oath in Hindi.......

where were these mns stormtroopers and guys when the terrorists attacked mumbai,

how about the muslims who were not in the army. did the pay jazia......

these were the manpower pool which could be drafted anytime.

Who is sowing the seeds of regionalism?

Today a MP was assaulted in Mharashtra assembly for taking the oath in Hindi.

Tomarrow some one else may be assaulated for singing the national anthem, instead of the 'vande-matraram'

however if your arguments hold muslims should be paying jazia in nonmuslim countries, since few of them are in the army...........

yes,thanks to the fact that in india army recruitment adverts have" muslims and tradesmen need not apply "boldly written on them.

Johnson J,

>> Why is everybody out at Muslim bashing?

Even you should “bash” the negative elements, practices etc of all societies including that of Muslim societies. The problem is only if you want to defend everything that is done in the name of religion that you think is your own. Try to make an independent and objective assessment of what you see as right and what you see as wrong in what is going on. And stand by what is right (and even there, be prepared to correct yourself if you see a valid counter point). At least, that I how I try to position myself.

>> What is the ingredient of the bold attitude shown by Kumar, Gayatri and others? The new power of IT in India? What else can you boast of?

I cannot talk about Gayatri, but I can talk about myself. The "bold attitude" (I disagree with the description though) has nothing to do with any riches or material wealth etc which you seem to be assuming. Read the point of principle I made above. The strength comes from principles and not from any self-sufficiency, wealth etc.

>> Little do they know what it means talking against the Islam, the world's second largest ...

Any practice that is wrong needs to be condemned, whether majority or minority. I welcome you to join me in condemning any negative elements/practices seen in the name of Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, atheism etc as well.

A small clarification on my previous post. I do not mean to say that "dancing in pub" is necessarily as bad as drug trafficking. But the comparison is made to make a point.

Who is representing the Hindus on a religious front? The first names that come to any mind are BJP / RSS / VHP. I bet the maulvis are better off... At least there's no politics in the name of religion. Who said it is only the maulvis who are not modern? The Pope was never modern. He always opposed the use of condoms. So why Gayatri is out for a Muslim bashing as if someone is paying you for it? Why is everybody out at Muslim bashing? Who said Pakistan is a big Muslim country? Who of you is not willing to go to Dubai, an Arab country. What if the Sheikhs decide one day to stop the sale of oil to India? King's rule, no democracy. EU wont help either! They have plenty of gold farms to survive on. What is the ingredient of the bold attitude shown by Kumar, Gayatri and others? The new power of IT in India? What else can you boast of? What has made you raise your head from the land of poverty? How can a few journalists and politicians give you the strength to speak against the Arab World? How large is your world? No wonder they say common sense is not common. People like Kumar, Gayatri etc are sure living in a 3rd World, satisfying themselves with the country's profound success through cheap labour in IT and ITES which bloomed the retail sector. Little do they know what it means talking against the Islam, the world's second largest religion though minor in India. Think big. Islam maulvis are not passé, and never will be. So is it with the bishops and popes. Continue voicing your opinions and frustrations against the Islam world. Most of you will not find a forum, so frequently where you can blast against Islam. This thread will flourish. Saba is an opportunity still being exploited to the core. Stop living in short lived pride, aye ye children of this motherland. You have 1 country to call of your own. Others have many, but still not as proud as you! The higher you soar, the bigger will be the fall. If the country falls, it is because of this fake pride shown by wannabe(s) like Kumar, Gayatri and others who think they are pros but next to a lamer.

And its my last contribution. Carry on people.. I know what you will talk next!

Ahmed Imran,

>> Do you think dancing in the pub is freedom to Women ...

So, "dancing in the pub" is the only professions available to women? That is like saying drug trafficking is the only profession available to men. The question you are asking is like asking "Do you think drug trafficking is freedom to men?".

>> Dont you think those are Injustice meted out to Women.

I agree with you that there is a lot of injustices meted out to women, being forced and exploited to many acts/deeds against their will etc. I am with you in fighting against such injustices. But this cannot be an excuse to prevent all other rights/justice/freedom etc of women.

faruki

pakistani,s will be best of under a foreign administration. otherwise the country will destroy
itself . decent people will try and flee , but will find it hard to find a country which will take them.

Ahmad Pasha,

>> They may not be literate in English, but a great majority of them are literate in Urdu and are eudcated in the basic ideology of their relgion and role models of their relgion.

Why should they not be literate in English or any other language of their choice for that matter? They should also be educated not just about the ideology their religion, but of all religions, philosophies, doctrines, role models etc and should be free follow what they see as the best (this applies to men as well as women)

>> They may be not working in the offices or bars or resturants, but are full time working with the children to make them good Muslims.

Even non-muslim housewives work "full time" with their children, and even the mothers who chose to work, often do double the work to take care of children.

>> unlike the children of educated western mothers, we do not find so many delinquint children among the Muslims.

Not sure if there is an objective measurement of that, considering all aspects of how a "delinquent child" can be defined. For example, becoming a religious fanatic violating the rights/justice/freedom of others is the worst of all. Even otherwise, there a TV documentary showing how so many people in Afghanistan use drugs etc. There are serious problems, violation of rights, injustices erc in all societies/communities and we should all fight against all of them. Let your focus be there, instead of wasting time on defending backwardness, lack of education, forced illiteracy etc by some self-deceptive play of words like “free from responsibility” etc. Do you think thay such play of words will help the community? It will be disatrous in the long run and you will even run out of such "arguments". Please wake up to reality and fight for betterment of society instead.

Kumar, Where do we place injustice on Women so that it needs to fought against , Do you think dancing in the pub is freedom to Women. If you think that is the freedom then will you let your women folk ( your sister, your Mom, your Wife)to do it. Then can you stand if people are salivating over what they obviously see something provocative . Those bar girls are only treated as sex object and they will be sold and purchased like any merchandise. Do you think that as a progress . Then again when people harass them you blow your horn and say Women are harassed . Do you think acting in Pornography Films is something to be welcomed and should be seen as a progress . Dont you think those are Injustice meted out to Women.

Ahmad Pasha,

>> Muslim women do have a right to work, but they are not under compulsion to work

It is not a "compulsion" to non-muslim women as well (or anyone for that matter). No one can “force” anyone to work, even to men. So what are you talking about? It is good that you believe that women can get employed, get educated, earn, choose a profession etc. The issue though is the restrictions on women in many Islamic societies, which needs to be fought against. Instead of fighting the injustice, you seem to be giving excuses for it by saying that “women are free from responsibility to work” etc – as if the women of this world have asked for your help/advice to free themselves from getting employed, earning etc.

This is in response to Ganapathi's view that Whether Madrasssa education reduce Polio and Aids among muslim Community,I am wondering where on earth Mr.Ganapathi has educated . Attending Madrassa is not preventing the people from Polio attacks, When he said muslim women are forced by their very relative in the sex trade same is true with Hindu also and it only makes the attending Madrassas all the more important i.e to ward off the evil effects anything which is seen as bane in the society . Also Mr.Ganapathi islam does not say that you cannot make profit all it says is that you cannot make undue profit and swindle people's Money and may be in yester years you culd have argued how dealing interest will be equivalent to swindling or squandering but today you are witnessing it with your own eyes . The recession which has swiped the entire world can owe its cause to the Interes based Economy . Also when you say that Many muslim women are married to Non Muslim men because they do not find any freedom in their religion , then can we also say that Non Muslim women are married to Muslim Men as they do not find liberty in their religion .Tamil Nadu is the no 1 state when it comes to the percentage of people affected by Aids .. are they all Muslims.?

faruki

there is nothing amiss about my statement of how the
world in general thinks of muslims. there are modern muslims who are a part of the broad community, but they are just a handful.

in denmark naser khader a mp in the danish parliament
started a organiseation of moderate muslims. it was
rediculed and its members were persecuted by the others, and it was wound down in about 2 months.

in this forum muslims express the most archaic views about how muslim women were best off in your societies.
most muslims live in a cloistered world, ruled by
the medieval system of koranic laws.

everyone is aware of this, and journalists from dawn
constantly write of the backwardness of their society.
i will not repeat mr cowasjee,s opinion. just the first two words" ghanni kharab........"

the danish parliament is considering a law which will
provide immigrant familes with a lump sum of 20,000 usd
should they wish to return home. none will i can say
with conviction.

you may be a bit modern yourself, but i am sure you must know that quite a few are ornerry critters.
i suppose you know of recent incidents. does cair take
care of the two paki,s who were planning bomb attacks on targets in india and denmark. do you provide them with home cooked meals, and visits by your maulvi chums.

"Education and literacy.

If the purpose of education is to incultate good moral character in a person and make him responsible citizen, the Muslim women have a distinction. They may not be literate in English, but a great majority of them are literate in Urdu and are eudcated in the basic ideology of their relgion and role models of their relgion".

I fully echo the views expressed by Ahmed Pasha , He has fully mirrored the stauts of Muslim Women. Well write and much appreciated.

Keep it up.

"Sadiq said there were important issues like illiteracy, unemployment and poverty which need to be taken up by everyone, including the ulemas."

Who cares for employment,poverty and education etc ? Poverty among Muslim make the a Maulvi'e business thriving .

"Maulana Mirza Mohammad Athar also questioned the timing of the fatwa which he claimed could ignite communal passions. "

But that Politicians and Clergy want and opposition welcomes riots.Otherwise how KODA like loot can be made ?

"Sadiq said there were important issues like illiteracy, unemployment and poverty which need to be taken up by everyone, including the ulemas."

Who cares for employment,poverty and education etc ? Poverty among Muslim make the a Maulvi'e business thriving .

"Maulana Mirza Mohammad Athar also questioned the timing of the fatwa which he claimed could ignite communal passions. "

But that Politicians and Clergy want and opposition welcomes riots.Otherwise how KODA like loot can be made ?

Akil,

>> And where is the PURE ISLAMIC STATE OF PAKISTAN "in man-woman equality index"?

Being better than them is poor consolation.

Congress has not learnt the lessons from its past Blunders .India and Congress itself paid heavy costs and loss of thousands of lives for that .Congress is repeating blunders like it did in patronising Bhinderawale,meddling in ethinic problem of Srilanka and Indira Gandhi's projection of Imam Bukahri Sr as the sole reprsentative of Muslims.All these recoiled back.

Bhinderawale's patronage ultimately burned Punjab and thousands paid with with lives icluding Indira Gandhi and Bhinderawale .SriLankan blunder resulted in killing of Rajiv Gandhi.

Patronage of Shahi Imam Abdulla Bukhari resulted in hardenibg of the other Muslim Clergy who felt Bukhari as a threat to them and their Relieous shops.They started preaching hardliner version of Islam .

Another mistake Congress under Rajiv committed was to replace Farook Abdulla in Kashmir and patronise Shiekh Abdulla's son in Law .Mufti Muhamd Sayeed then in Congress was the architect of this policy.Within two months Kashmir burnt and is still burning .

Rajiv started his Election Yatra from from Ayodhya after the Shilanayas of the Ram Mandir by him .Hindutva parties felt that their agenda had been hijacked by the Congress and raised the pitch for "Madir Wahien Baneye Gein " -means will liberate Ramjanm Bhumi .And liberation will not come without destruction of the Babri-which though not intended by the BJP who used the issue as Hindu vote catcher stunt only.But hardliner Hindu groups calmly bypassed BJPites and destroyed the Masjid itself even before Advani and co at the site could realise what was happening and what will be the consequences .Mob euphoria dulled BJP leaders' wiser councils.

Problem with our Secular friends here specially with Muslims is that they start from the Babri destruction and ignore the past cause which brought the final destruction.

Th result is for all of us to see .India is still paying the price.

Now Congress is embracing Deoband and other Clergy .

They should realise that whenever Clergy or Dharmacharyas or Padres are invited to meddle in Politics for the sak of Votes then the end result is always horrible for the Country and for its people.

Pakistan is the example .Jia ul Haque handed over Pakistan to venerable Clergy in the Seventies .They have brought Pakistan on the doors of DOJAHAK-HELL instead of taking it to promised Bhist -JANNAT !!

FIRST STONE HAS BEEN FLUNG 'WILL NOT SING VANDE MATRAM " Await the consequences.

Another Punjab like stupidity our worthy Congress is repeating in Maharashtra .Death and destruction will be the consequences .

===========================
Granth Sahib : Koor Raja Koor Praja --koor sab vahaar '

'Rulers ,People all are liers .They all will be consumed by the dust and destoyed by their own lies "

ANWAAR, And where is the PURE ISLAMIC STATE OF PAKISTAN "in man-woman equality index"??? ( I love Pakistan. It's a nice punching bag when ever India is cornered).

"India at bottom in man-woman equality index: WEF"

http://timesofindia....icleshow/5212464.cms

Kumar
Bangalore, India

Muslim women do have a right to work, but they are not under compulsion to work , earn and contribute to the household expenses.

In Muslims, the men bear all the economic responsibilty, and the women being free of such a responsibility take care of children.
ahmad pasha
long island,

MUSLIM WOMEN will be free ONLY when they have a "choice". Presently, MUSLIM WOMEN are "FORCED" to into purda and look after children because there are women in other religion also staying home to look after children "by CHOICE".

However, there is no need to object to what MUSLIMS are doing. Let all MUSLIM WOMEN be in purda looking after children- it ensures reservation of jobs for other women. MUSLIM MEN also must only study in MADRASSAs to become MULLAHS. A FATWA should be issued directing TRUE MUSLIMS to keep away from computer and internet so that they do not get corrupted by visiting any site which deals with anything other than QUR'AN especially pornographic sites.

Gayatri/Lalit,

>> whilst most others nonmuslims across the world thing think of in the worst possible manner.

Again wishful thinking on your part! Having a hate-pracharak judge how the world feels about Muslims is beyond ridiculous.

Anil,

>> these mullahs gave fatwa against terrorism when they saw there is about to be big hindu backlash.

There was even a bigger gripe from Muslims! BTW, is the VHP going to issue a fatwa against the terrorism of Abinav Bharati and Sanatan Sanstha?

It makes no sense to argue which religion is better, because every religion has contents that are praiseworthy and contents that appear inhuman to a non-believer. And irrespective of all the claims of the God and the after life you have not seen what God or after life is like, except for knowing through the scriptures. Religion is a matter of belief and it is fine as long as religion remains within the limits of individual beliefs.
But the trouble with those with strong beliefs in their religions and who strongly follow their scriptures is that they knowingly or unknowingly discriminate people from other faith. If for example you believe that there is only one Allah and Mohammad is the only messenger it is fine as long as you also believe that even non-Muslims have their own faith and they also believe in a God in a different form. But if you follow Koran strictly then you say how is this possible? How can Kafirs have Gods?
If Muslims need any change it is not in the Koranic teachings, but in the change in their interpretation of Koranic teachings. Prophet Muhammad is no longer there to explain every passage in the context of the modern times, but devout Muslims certainly can interpret Koran in a way that is reflective of a liberal mind. Vande Mataram has strong sentimental value for millions of Indians because of its attachment to India's freedom fighters. When you junk its singing as unIslamic because of its reference to the mother India, you expose a very narrow interpretation of your religious identity. Remember Islam dominated global civilizations when the Muslim scholars were pursuing knowledge in different spheres of activities, exchanging views or borrowing knowledge from other civilizations and cultures. And it faced low ebb only after the liberals were replaced with conservatives who were looking only at old scriptures to resolve all the challenges modernity posed. The key issue no longer was the quest for knowledge but the argument whether something is interpreted Islamic or un-Islamic.
And such archaic views often are at variance with the modern world. For example Sania Mirza is a talented tennis player, but if she is judged by the kind of un-Islamic clothes she wears on tennis courts and not by her tennis then there is a problem.
And if obscuratism dominates the society in the name of true loyalty to Islam then don't expect many think leaders can come up to take the Muslim world to its past glory.

mirza

how about the muslims who were not in the army. did the pay jazia.

however if your arguments hold muslims should be paying jazia in nonmuslim countries, since few of them are in the army.

pasha

it is amuseing to read your satisfaction with your community, whilst most others nonmuslims across the world thing think of in the worst possible manner.

however considering you are so smart , or at least thats the way you think, why do you live amongst us.
move over to some muslim country. it will be a great day when that happens.

ofcource that day will never come. muslim countries are
in a sorry mess, and especially pakistan, the
country muslims in india wanted so much.pakistani,s
would leave enmasse for any other place , but no one wants them.

Ahmad Pasha,

>> In Muslims, the men bear all the economic responsibilty, and the women being free of such a responsibility take care of children.

Many women in many cultures/societies are housewives including in non-mulsim societies, but women also should have the right to be employed, get educated, earn etc as well. You don’t have to "free them of such responsibility" against their will (if that is what you are saying).

Bazeed Mirza,

>> jaziya was a tax imposed on non muslims in lieu of being excused from military service ..

Why should non-muslims be not allowed to take part in military service or any other post/position for that matter? Don’t Muslims work in the Military and in positions of power in nations where Muslims are a minority?

Why Jajia was imposed on Minorities ? Our Christian girl School was burned along with girls hostel last week ? What type of love showing is this......

jaziya was a tax imposed on non muslims in lieu of being excused from military service,since they had neither to provide either manpower or weapons for the armies,they had to pay a contribution for the defense fund.
where did the school burning occur in orissa is it?

version of Vande Mataram already does not contain the stanze where there is idol worshipping.....

whats the difference,let the guys sing sare jahan se accha,

Anwar was the only Indian Muslim voice in this forum often dominated by the a few hindutwavadi commentators. It's a welcome change to read views of Imran, Bazeed and Pasha , Johnson etc. to get a slightly wider Muslim perspective.
Clearly Pasha and Johnson belong to a more conservative camp as opposed to Anwar or Imran who seem to be from a liberal world view. And that kind of diversity of opinions is obvious in a community of some fifteen crores of Indian Muslims who often are mistakenly portrayed as a singular mass of identity. (If you read Pakistani newspapers often they represent all Hindus in a generic lot.) Generalization and steroptyping is a part and parcel of our perceptual process.
I have always wondered why Muslims are represented only by the backward looking Mullahs, when in real life there are hundreds of professionals,businessmen, entertainers, doctors, lawyers, engineers etc. who could have served as the face of the Indian Muslims. When I read Saba's article I am aware that there are others who support the same view. But then we also have Johnsons and Pashas whose views are different. For example, Pasha believes that those who are non-Muslims and belive in idols actually do not know who god is, as if God has given the sole contract to the members of Muslim faith that you are only ones who know God. Pasha also is convinced that every other religion does not teach morality and ethics (as if all Muslims are morally correct including those planting bombs to kill innocents in the name of Jihad) and discriminates against women ( as if Islam does not discriminate by giving less witness rights to women, focing purdah etc.)Probably these are the people who will read each word of Koran believing in each letter (not necessarily spirit of Islam)and seek guidance from a Mullah's fatwa for carrying out their day to day life. These are the people who probably carry more weight in the Indian Muslim votebank.Probably Indian politicians are well aware that a Mullah -raj is their best option to get support from Johnson and Pasha and a large part of the Muslim community. That probably explains why Azim Premji, Mansur Pataudi, Amir Khan, Dr. Abdul Kalam and A.R. Rahman despite all their talents in different spheres can never be the true representatives of the Indian Muslims - only the Madrasa-trained Mullahs will speak authoritatively on their behalf, while a burkha clad woman will be the true face of an Indian Muslim woman and not a Saba Naqvi or Shabana Azmi.
Read Pasha and Johnson's postings again to get convinced.

Disclaimer: I would not mind responding to those who meet the basic requirements of participating in a forum, which according to me are possessed by a few here like G. Devi, Anwaar, and Ahmad P.

Fatwa: is a religious opinion concerning Islamic law issued by an Islamic scholar.

So when opines, it means its an issuance of a Fatwa. Why cry foul over Fatwas when the leaders are just voicing their opinions?!

Adding to what Ahmad P has said:

1. Low rate of AIDS amongst Muslims, courtesy the old ritual of circumcision. Jesus was circumcised too! :D

2. When it comes to the importance of women in Islam, forget destroying them before birth, the men marry 10 to 20 times and take care of that many women and offsprings! So kudos to them! :D

Other facts:

1. A.R. Rahman's version of Vande Mataram did not contain the lines of idol worship.

2. Muslims defying the fatwa, won't be successful. Because the official version of Vande Mataram already does not contain the stanze where there is idol worshipping.

People disrespecting the maulvis / clerics: Atleast they weren't involved in sex scams and scandals like the sadhus. Remember the in house facts before bashing the other religion's clerics. Of course Christianity did have some kinky bishops / priests, but they weren't the Vatican breed, and they are discounted for it because they live a wife-less solo life. :)

ganapathi
chennai, India

Do you know, sometime back there was a discussion here in NY, as to what is the reason for low incidence of HIV/AIDS even among the Muslims of NY.

ganapathi
chennai, India

The hatred for females is ingrained in Indians, but among the hindus it goes to the extreme, where they are killed before birth and those who are born are not treated at par with sons.

The parents treat them as burden and have to give a hefty dowry to get rid of them Even after marriage, they have to earn their own livlihood and contribute to the household expenses.

In Muslims, the men bear all the economic responsibilty, and the women being free of such a responsibility take care of children.

Johnson J.,Pune :: "4. The clerics hold on to their decision against Vande Mataram, because the song has 1 or 2 lines of idol worship. The Bible and The Koran says no to it. So what’s wrong if the clerics tell their folks to not sing it? Well, the clerics might not be informed that the official version of Vande Mataram does not include a few stanzas."

:: Well, Johnson J. may feel depreesed by reading the news report,"Muslims defy 'fatwa', sing Vande Mataram" in TOI (http://timesofindia...leshow/5212516.cms), that reads : "Defying the 'fatwa' issued by Jamiat-Ulama-e-Hind against rendition of Vande Mataram, a group of Muslims led by a clergyman joined
people from other communities in singing the national song in front of a mosque in Betul, M.P."...Now, such articles by Saba and others are definitely making some people taking notice and taking action. Eh!

This entire discussion is a 'bakwas'

Vande-Matram is not a prescription for progress , nor it is s a sign of patriotism.

faruki

progress at last.

now will the maulvis agree to the singing of some nursery rhymes.

mary had a little lamb.

twinkle twinkle little star.

strike when the iron is hot.

"Lucknow : A leading Shia cleric has taken on India's largest Islamic seminary and said that there was "nothing wrong" if a Muslim sings the national anthem 'Vande Mataram'.

"I see nothing wrong for a Muslim to recite Vande Mataram as long as it means salutation to the nation and does not amount to offering prayers," Shia scholar and All India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) member Maulana Hameedul Hasan told IANS.

The declaration came close on the heels of a similar announcement by another renowned Shia cleric and AIMPLB's senior vice president, Maulana Kalbe Sadiq." (IANS).

"New Delhi : In a bid to tone down the row over its fatwa against the singing of 'Vande Mataram', clerics from the Deoband Islamic seminary have said they won't stop Muslims from singing the national song but the fatwa would stay.

The climbdown comes after some clerics from Darul Uloom Deoband met Hindu spiritual leader Sri Sri Ravi Shankar.

"The clerics have changed their stand on 'Vande Mataram' to bring the Hindu-Muslim communities closer," said a press statement from Sri Sri Ravi Shankar.

The clerics, according to the press release, said they "do not have any objection to the national song" and have left it to the "conscience" of Muslims who should decide for themselves whether they want to sing it or not.

Sri Sri told them that 'Vande Mantaram' is not a prayer but a means of thanksgiving. Quoting a Supreme Court judgment, Sri Sri also said that no one should be pressurised to sing 'Vande Mataram'." (IANS).

(A step in the right direction!).

The writer sounds to be embarrassed being tagged to the religion he / she was born in. Let’s quickly apply logic to this article:

1. If it’s not the clerics, who should represent the community? A private NGO? They are of course the law makers for the religion. Christianity has no such single representation and so their churches are burnt and nuns are raped. Will it not replicate in Islam if the clerics keep their mouths shut? So of course politicians will revolve around the clerics, who undoubtedly drive the religion in India.
2. Who heads Christianity? Largely, it is the Vatican. Christian laws do emerge and develop and change from time to time. But not through press conferences, but through respectful letters from the Pope to the congregation.
3. What’s wrong if the clerical grip on the community increases? If all the Muslims process their thoughts like the writer, the Holy Koran will be extinct in a few decades.
4. The clerics hold on to their decision against Vande Mataram, because the song has 1 or 2 lines of idol worship. The Bible and The Koran says no to it. So what’s wrong if the clerics tell their folks to not sing it? Well, the clerics might not be informed that the official version of Vande Mataram does not include a few stanzas. WikiPedia on Vande Mataram says it all. But it is justified for them to stand with the Holy Koran.
5. Media made a fuss of the clerical decision against Vande Mataram. RSS and VHP, the outsiders for Islam, verbally attack the clerics for mentioning a line from the Holy Koran which says no to idol worship. Can they ever talk against the Holy Koran? Will the Muslim nations be quiet if it happens? So spare these clerics, they’re of course of no harm.
6. You did dare here to speak out against the clerics, and your dislike about their strong grip over the Community. But none of the Islam groups have ever spoken against them, nor stood up against their decisions in the history. So this article is going nowhere.

This article is only spoiling the futures of Islamists in India. Imagine a time when the political attitude towards Islam is the opposite of what it is now. Muslim clerics in India, is what Vatican is to Christianity. Religion ends when clerics lose. Such articles shake up the foundation of these clerics. Such are the articles which risk religion.

Now for the sweet comments about this article by other readers:

1. Supporting Saba, means encouraging Vande Mataram, which in turn means asking the Muslims to go against the Holy Koran. Asking Muslims to praise idol worship, is just like me asking you to stop it. Will you? Not of course.
2. Will the custom of tying lemons n chillies stop? Hanging a black doll outside homes stop? Women wearing sindhoor stop? Nobody noticed Gujju women veiling their faces? You only noticed the Muslims ha? Even if it’s not full time for Gujjus, but atleast there exists a custom like that!

Before encouraging the Muslims to act against the Holy Koran, will anyone of us act against the Geeta or the Bible or other such books? And little does Saba know, that he / she is a massive opportunity which has been exploited by a quiet few to speak out and give some bashings to the Islamic views.

Fact is these mullahs gave fatwa against terrorism when they saw there is about to be big hindu backlash and even that fatwa was peppered with wail of vicitmhood..

Again thsi fatwa is nothign but continuation fo what Muhd ali jinnah did in 1947.. if and when muslism get the numbers right be prepared for yet another divison all the anwar of this world then drop their burqua of secualrism and join the chorus just like jinaha who had burqua secularism btu when saw the time was ripe joined the bandwagon

Recently there has been a news from an English medium school in Mydhukuru, Kadapa of Andhra Pradesh, about few students being beaten-up for speaking in their mother-tongue in the class-rooms. Placards were hung to their necks with words "We will not speak Telugu ever again." The news sent shock-waves across the state and now Telugu-Talli song has become compulsory in every school. I think it's a good move and will inculcate respect for their mother-tongue. I remember being punished harshly several times, for speaking in my mother-tongue while in school. Now this decision by the state government seems like a breath of fresh air for guys like me. If Muslim clergy have issues with Vande Mataram, I am sure they are going to oppose this one too, and it will only lead to their isolation.

The son of John Major was caught for drinking as a teenager and the neice of Bush was caught for a counterfeit prescription for drugs.
ahmad pasha
dear friend but hundreds r caught with bombs and killing innocent civilians and rarely any enemy troops.did madrasa education reduce the incidence of aids among muslims.there r lakhs of muslim women involved in commercial sex work.the western women atleast try drugs/become csw on their choice but poor bangladeshi women/muslim women from assam,westbengal etc are forced into flesh trade by their own relatives.
madrasa education will not reduce polio but makes india still have polio cases as it spreads rumours that it may cause impotency etc.are there no muslims in share market/have account in banks as islam forbids getting interest. do any muslim sell his property without appreciation as islam is against making profit.religion is basically meant for entertainment of men and to subjugate women and muslim women come last after other religions as reformers in muslim relgion are very rare.given a chance muslim women who r pilots/actresses/doctors/ias officers marry nonmuslims as their religion crushes them.

"It is one of the great tragedies of the secular experiment in India that the clerical class and their institutions are considered representative of one of the largest Muslim populations. In the process, we bestow legitimacy on the most conservative elements and are actually complicit in increasing the clerical grip on the community."

For once, I agree with every single word you have written here, Saba, keep it up!

who in our place would have
kicked the shit out of the pakistani.......

y dont you start,tomorrow get up and kick some pakistani in your vicinity,or can you??????//

Education and literacy.

If the purpose of education is to incultate good moral character in a person and make him responsible citizen, the Muslim women have a distinction. They may not be literate in English, but a great majority of them are literate in Urdu and are eudcated in the basic ideology of their relgion and role models of their relgion.
They may be not working in the offices or bars or resturants, but are full time working with the children to make them good Muslims. unlike the children of educated western mothers, we do not find so many delinquint children among the Muslims. The son of John Major was caught for drinking as a teenager and the neice of Bush was caught for a counterfeit prescription for drugs.

"At the root of the problem is the spirit of accommodation. By putting its stamp on a fatwa, a religious decree against singing Vande Mataram, the Darul Uloom has violated the mutual show of generosity that is so essential for democracy.

It is one thing to deem that singing Vande Mataram is voluntary; it is a separate matter to forbid Muslims from singing the national song.

The first is an exercise of choice; the second is an example of doctrinaire intolerance, an act of provocation that will inevitably encourage hotheads to make Vande Mataram a loyalty test of Indian-ness.

In 1997, A R Rahman bridged the Vande Mataram divide with his own tribute to Mother India; last week the Deobandis reopened an old wound."

... writes Swapan Dasgupta
http://blogs.timesof...e-mataram-bridge-the

Akil, Bangalore >>> "But the FATWA has infringed on the freedom of each individual Muslim- guaranteed by the Indian Constitution- to decide if he wants to sing it or NOT. "Fatwas of Deoband" may not be binding but there are millions of Muslims in India who may want to sing Vande Mataram but may abstain from doing so due to FATWA which amounts to intimidation of INDIAN MUSLIMS ..."

Correct !!!! absolutely bang on ...

"But were I ever to live by the fatwas of Deoband, I would be in purdah and spend considerable time negotiating complexities of pure/impure and haraam/halaal. Certainly not a life for a liberal agnostic who loves the old rendition of Vande Mataram by V.D. Paluskar and is quite taken with the A.R. Rahman version too."

"The Partition of 1947 should have taught us the dangers of making any one individual or group the sole spokesman of Indian Muslims."

"Pakistan literally translates into Land of the Pure and we have all seen what has happened to the only Muslim nation actually created in the name of religion. But secular India has hardly dealt with the Muslim minority in an enlightened manner. Instead of helping the community integrate and modernise, the political class has made deals with the clerics. Years of reporting on institutions set up for the apparent welfare and protection of the community have convinced me that the nexus between clerics, politicians and wheeler-dealers has created a small class of “sarkari Musalmans” who are now stakeholders in Muslim backwardness.

Consider the state of the most well known institutions associated with the community. First, the Muslim Personal Law Board, made up of a collection of clerics from various schools of Islam (but dominated by Deobandis) who bury their head in the sand and resist any attempt to even rationalise personal law. They have actually served to ensure that in matters of divorce, maintenance and inheritance, the community is governed by laws and traditions that some Arab countries have rejected."


This is after a long time that I have seen Saba Naqvi write like this ... well done ... I am no BJP supporter but wish to know why the Congress and succularists themselves have branded "Vande Matram" communal ??

read: Muslim defy fatwa, sing "Vande Matram ..."
http://timesofindia....icleshow/5212516.cms

imran

people are biased against muslims across the world.

its for you to find out why. either the whole world
is wrong or you are wrong.

my contention is that we should treat muslims in the same way as they treat others. no worse and no better.

if they demand pure muslim states and expell nonmuslims, then we should do the same.

otherwise they will keep on with their hateful ways.

muslims have misused the decency of nonmuslims, by misbehaveing themselves, and asking others to behave
better then them. it is rediculous.

this is straight talk.

if hindus are expelled from kashmir,we should expell muslims from one state where we are in a majority.

muslims claim that they have chosen to live in india.
if this is so then forget your long list of demands.
learn to adapt to the national culture, and if you
find it distasteful be free to live in isolation, or immigrate to some other country.

there must be something wrong with you guys that you are the only community which faces discriminaion. hindus accept christians, sikhs, parsis and jews.

your failure to recoganise this is part of your problem. some muslims in usa,europe are leaveing islam.
criminals in usa jails mostly blacks are joining islam.
you are most welcome to this.

nonmuslims should set aside naive silly behaviour,
and act to protect their own interests, just as muslims
protect their own.

in any case the koran has asked muslims to live amongst
brother muslims, and it claims that we are destined
to go to hell. should we be magnanimous against such people. i think not.

i believe strongly that nonmuslims should withdraw from islamic nations, to reduce the possibilities of
friction. likewise we should encourage difficult
practioners of islam to leave our world.

if muslims are the chosen people, destined to go to
heaven, and we are chosen to go to hell, then we have
nothing in common. lets accept this, and i at least refuse to accept self seveing arguments from muslims
in this forum.

as george bush said. either you are with us or against us. i believe that by and large most muslims are against nonmuslims. why should we delude ourselves to
please fake secularists. why should we pretend that we are friends when we are not. have we not learnt from the bitter lessons of sneak attacks, treachery by pakistani,s. obviously not.

hypocracy and weakness are dishonourable. muslims in
pakistan are taught that one muslim soldier is equal to 10 hindu soldiers. let us give them a harsh lesson that this is not so.

after every attack cowardly indian politicians have
avoided a confrontation. this is shameful. we need
to learn from israel, who in our place would have
kicked the shit out of the pakistani,s.

bharat mata ki jai.

typical of headless chicken desis to keep fighting each other. crooked politicians have snared both communities. with the hindus, they give out reservation and other sops to get their votes. with the muslims they raise paranoia about "hindu dominance", giving haj subsidies, allowing their personal law and also get the support of the maulvis and keep them in check. not wanting to give up on their 'priveleges' both these chickens do not know how to resolve their issues.

sati did not orginate in india during the time of islamic invasions. even in the mahabharata (which is older than prophet mohd by atleast 1000 years), pandu's wife jumps into his funeral pyre - kunti remains to take care of the children. sati had a certain sanction in the society - but again this was only voluntary for the wives of the deceased and was not forced by family/society etc. but again the dharmasutras (which lay down the laws of life for hindus) clearly are unaware of this concept and actually encourage women to remarry. but historically during islamic invasions (as with any invasion) women were considered as "booty" and so it is likely that this practice got new life - mainly amongst the rajputs primarily because they were directly in the regions most affected by invasions. but we dont even find any mention of this practice in southern india.

Dear Akil , We dont see anything in Islam which hampers our progress . When you say you change it is only because you feel the need to change. While talking about the liberation of Women Folk , Islam permitted Women folk to have share(I.e the right of Inheritance) in her father's property some 1400 years back when Women were treated just like any other Merchandise . Which religion gives such a right to women Folk. Dont you see that as a way to progress , Islam does not say that Women folk should not be educated, Islam does not say Women folk should not work , All it say is that they cannot do anything which would make them treated as a sexual Object .

And finally the topic is should singing vande Materam is the criterion to judge one's patriotism .

So if we all do justice to the topic it will be appreciated .

This is to Mr.Akhil to clarify his Misconception , Prophet Sal permitted his disciples to have sex with War Captives (Although it was forbidden at his time itself) to elimitae Slavery . Slavery was not invented by Prophet Mohd Sal however it was there since time immemorial and Prophet sal permitted to have sex with those War captives and there was a Condition attached to it, Those conditions were you are not permitted to have sex against the Wish of those War Captives ,and if she bears a Child she would be treated equally as a free Woman. Just to relieve sexual grafification was not the purpose there . The purpose was to eliminate Slavery and he forbade that practice during his time itself . Miraculously enough in his period he completely eliminated poverty by implementing the system of Zakah which no intellect be he Economist or be he a phd has ever done on the face of the Earth.Zakah liberates people from Slavery and I see that as a way to progress.

Again when you talk about Pakistan, They are not authority on Muslims , So you see them as a country not as an islamic state .

Gayatri/Lalit,

>> in france muslim girls are kept
locked away, and mistreated by their men folks.

Ill-treatment of women unfortunately is not rare. That's why we have all those dowry deaths in India. Please don't keep repeating the same old arguments 100 times. My last post to you today.

mirza

i accept that i was wrong.

faruki

is it ok for muslims to demand pakistan and expell hindus from kashmir. assumeing that the bjp wants a hindu state what so wrong about this.

this is a rhetorical question but one which should be asked. how can muslims misbehave across the world, and
point fingers at others.

your compareing the bjp to muslim bigots is absurd.
they are i agree biased against muslims, but hundreds
of millions of people are across the world. there are
many in the usa, and the major cause is the behaviour,
mindset of muslims themselves.

this bias will disappear when the muslims in practice change themselves. no amount of pontificateing from you,arundhati roy or vinod mehta will help.

A Very astute observation. But, in vain. The problem is that these mullahs are easy to manage. Once in a while you have to share their podium. Shower them with some personal favors. But, the educated muslims who would like to see muslim community integrated with the mainstream would ask for education and access to job market, which is a big headache. So, take a short cut and appease the mullahs once in a while. Educated muslims may also ask for the sundry reports to be implemented. Mullah with the siege mentality would be happy to get safety of his followers.

George,

>> TO Anwar Mia from Dallas.

Only ill-bred idiots call me Anwar Mia.

>> nobody is interested what it was 1000 years ago

Do you understand English? I said "over the past 1000 years", not "1000 years ago".

>> Where on earth u would find a terrorist doctor...

Lt.Col. Purohit is rotting in jail right now. His mentor Togadia is a doctor. I condemn all terrorists, whether they are doctors or not, and irrespective of whether they are Hindus or Muslims.

You have no idea about how the modern Muslim lives or even how the majority of Muslims live. The only Muslims you seem to know are bigots and hatemongers just like yourself.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States

......

we know anwar mia, they are all obsessed with their religion. Where on earth u would find a terrorist doctoror a terrorist scientist,only among urself

Akil,

>> But the FATWA has infringed on the freedom of each individual Muslim- guaranteed by the Indian Constitution- to decide if he wants to sing it or NOT.

You are wrong on two counts. The fatwa is just an opinion. Those Muslims who have been singing Vande Mataram will continue to do so. Those Muslims who have been refraining from singing Vande Mataram will also continue to do so. Darul Ulum also has a fatwa against photography, but pictures of Darul Ulum's leaders are hanging in Darul Ulum itself in Deoband!

Secondly the Indian Constitution does not prevent any group or person from giving its opinion or recommendation to anyone who is willing to listen to them. In the past fatwas were issued to kill certain individuals, e.g. the Danish cartoonists or Salman Rashdi. Such fatwas were instigating criminal activity and should have been prosecuted. I was surprised that the government did not take any action against them.

While I wish that the Jamiat had not issued its fatwa against singing Vande Mataram, the Jamiat did not break any laws by its action. It is better for Muslims to speak out against the Jamiat's fatwa, as many have done, rather than invoke the law.

I Don't know why Hindus and Muslims start fighting about their religion every time instead of presenting their points on the excellent topic raised by Saba.......I think the people posting the comments on this article are mentally sick and more prone to U-Tube........from the comments being posted by such peoples one can easily understand that these are the illiterate and radical elements who knew nothing except fighting on unnecessary matters........Here one should show some concern related to education and development of minorities but instead they were still talking rubbishly only about religion.......I think every one should be tough to follow "Nation above everything".....I think every citizen should propel himself and should work for his development which will ultimately led to the development of our nation....our Govt. should focus on better education of Muslims and other peoples which could invoke their participation ...so that they can take up cudgels for the nation-a challange that will put them on the path of prosperty.......Every Muslim should take initiative in bringing glory to nation which will ultimately enlighten him with prosperty and his development.......so, stop talking about your religion and start focusing on your MOTHERLAND,,,,your NATION- "INDIA".........and plz try to build "COUNTRY FIRST" attitude.................JAI HIND......VANDE MATRAM

Rendering VANDE MATHARAM does NOT makes anyone patriotic nor abstaining from singing it make anyone less patriotic. But the FATWA has infringed on the freedom of each individual Muslim- guaranteed by the Indian Constitution- to decide if he wants to sing it or NOT. SABA NAQUVI may be smart enough to ignore "fatwas of Deoband" but there are millions of Muslims in India who will accept the FATWA. So Jamait Ulema-e-Hind followers should either live in India accepting Indian Constitution which guarantees "individual FREEDOMS" or get out of India.

A wonderful article by Saba Naqvi. As usual she writes with rare insight and intelligent conclusion. I can only hope that the short-sighted politicians are reading and taking it all in.

It is a crying shame that we can not rise above our obsession with minority vote-bank poltics, whether it is scheduled caste and tribes, OBCs or Muslims.

Who is to blame? The politicians whose imperative is to win the next election or the half-educated electorate who is only too ready to be conned?

We have to accept our responsibility.

Gayatri Devi , Why would you want us to leave India .When we were " Bumi Putras" of India and how can you forget the gruesome incident which bleeded the hearts of Millions who sincerely care for others. So you will inflict all the harms on other and you will expect them to be silent. Cant we live alongside in Harmony and serenity .

imran

really , were 60,000 muslims killed in gujerat.

are you in a lunatic cell.

if hindus are so vicious why have muslims not left gujerat. instead the population of muslims in india
has gone up from 30 million to 160 million in 60 years.

imran

there will be peace after disengagement between muslims
and nonmuslims.

i have called for the withdrawal of american forces
from muslim countries. i have supported the creation of pakistan, and separate muslim states in bosnia, cyprus and lebenon. now muslims in china want their own state. good luck to them.

likewise nonmuslims also want their own states free from muslims. that is the way to peace. we have different views on life. i dont condemn your views,
but likewise i want a modern liberal society which is
incompatible with your beliefs.

your destiny is in your hands. your community has got pakistan and bangladesh. kashmir will go the same way.

haveing done all of these can you lecture us on what muslims have done to civilise india. . we will correct the faults of our society, and you should take care of yours.

neither wants to learn from the other, in india or in the west.

this is honest talk, just a repetition of what jinnah
said many years ago. muslims in pakistan echo this
view and today theirs is a pure islamic society with
no room for others. zia ul haq, musharaff were born in india, and just look at their attitude to india.

i ask you one question.

would you prefer to live in a pure islamic state or
would you prefer to share a country with hindus, with whom you have so many differences.

i would never wish to live in a muslim country

if you dont want to hear honest talk, lets quit.

Dear Gayatri , You might have heard about the matra "Its pakistan or Kaburusthan" uttered by Certain fundamentalist and War mongerers who quenches on blood shed and enmity . Are these Mantra to Progress . Why dont you comeforward to condemn those Mantras and step upon those who call for Enmity . do you see the system of "Sati" as a way to progress ? Infanticide and foeticide is rampant in which society ? Please wake up to the facts.

GAYATRI,
dont look for new alibis,you will help whom?help yourself.
you want modern muslims among your midst.let me think, you want somebody with jinnah or pervez musharrafs demeneour?thats what a muslim will be ultimately in your eyes if allowed to grow unhindered,
would you be able to take that.
would the fascist among you let that secular streak emerge?since majority of muslims in india have a siege mindset after what has happened over the past few years,they fall back and have created an identity out of their religious affiliation,which they feel is under threat.so the skull caps and beards,u see everywhere.

Dear Ram Ambalwi , We do not approve what is happening in Pakistan and we do not shed tears selectively I.E shedding tears only when our own group is affected . If you are talking about an event in Pakistan what were we doing when 60,000 Civilian Muslims were killed in Gujarat at the hands of Felonious Politicians to serve their Interest, What were we doing when 600,000 Civilian Muslims were killed by American troops since the invasion of Iraq by America .

My friend all i request is that when an injustice is inflicted whether it is upon Hindu or Christian or Muslim or for that sake any Mortal Creature we whould respond and we should not shed selective tears.

Let not the hatred towards a sect makes you deal unjustly with them" . We Muslims do not sow the seed of hatred we only sow the seed of Love . Hope Gayatri will find the truth one day ."

Ahmad Imran then how you expalin bombings and killings in Pakistan in name of Islam .Why Jajia was imposed on Minorities ? Our Christian girl School was burned along with girls hostel last week ? What type of love showing is this ?

Well Gayatri is trying to find an escape route by changing the topic to entirely a new topic which has no relevance to the topic here. While we condemn the acts of Pakistan causing communal riot, we only say that singing "Vande Mataram" has no significance in the lives of Muslims. Also what we are requesting the World at large is not to try to hamper our progress .

Gayatri again and again as i have pointed out you are either Misrepresenting the Facts or You are quoting out of contexts , If prophet Mohammed commands the Muslim to kill the jews and Christians then why he was prised by Mahatma Gandhi and other greats . If there is any truth to what you are claiming (That is Muslims are living with the principle Might is Right) then this Great India should have been a Muslim Country because we ruled over India for 800 years . Well again to refresh your Memory We have made great progress in the field of Medicine , The company called as "CIPLA" hope you would have heard the name was founded by a Muslim , Mr.Azeem Premji is a Muslim and The Ex President Hish Highness APJ Abdul Kalam is a Muslim . So again im only requesting you not try to hamper our progress by launching an attacking spree . Repeated trial of misrepresentation of Truth does not hide the Truth .

Gayatri , Once again you have unleashed your hatred towards Muslims and we dont need any of your help but we are only requesting you not try to hamper our progress by misrepresenting the Truth and doing a Media Circus . If you try to say that wearing skimpy clothes and displaying amorous attitudes are the way to progress then again i would say we do not need such a progress . I do not want to embark on a journey of hatred and enmity as i will try to stick to the call of the Quran "Let not the hatred towards a sect makes you deal unjustly with them" . We Muslims do not sow the seed of hatred we only sow the seed of Love . Hope Gayatri will find the truth one day .

imran

you distrust hindus, and yet you continue to expect them to help you. they will not. muslims will never help nonmuslims, and i dont expect them to.
i would be a fool to do so.

the rich arab countries do nothing to help poor muslims of india.

you have no alternative but to help yourselves. however
your record from the last 60 years is dismal. it seems that all that you will do is to keep complaining, liveing in the glory of times long past, and remain stuck in backwardness.

many hindus distrust muslims and this is based on
past history,ie muslim rule and the violent partition
of india. furthermore pakistani muslims have enormous
hatred for hindus, and you will allways be held guilty
for this as well .you are regarded as their mirror image in many ways ie their less ugly twin.

muslims have no future in india or even in pakistan unless they take a u turn. islam will allways block your progress, and there will be no progress unless
you admit this.

there is a future for you only if you discard your religious obsessions, embrace modernity, and learn from other communities.

burn your skull caps, shave off your beards,and free
your women from imprisonment in the atrocious burqas.
that at least will show that you are willing to take the first step to progress.

let me repeat one thing. nonmuslims have no obligation to help you. thats your job.

Well for Gayatri's information , We Muslims have contibuted so much to liberate India but again we are only treated as a "pariah" . You would have heard abt VOC Pillai and the world at large would have hailed him as great and he was credited for launching the first indigenous Indian shipping service between Tuticorin and Colombo with the Swadeshi Steam Navigation Company, competing against British ships and what the world does not know is the fact that He was funded by a Muslim .This fact is hidden from the knowledge of the Media great to serve their own self crooked felonious interests. So ofcourse you have no rights to tell us to go out of this Country and you only have all the rights to drive away those who blow hot and cold air in same breath , who bestows promises upon promises and digging a deep hole underneath it. If you still need a reason for Muslims armament i suggest you read book by Micheal Scheur "imperial hubris" . If you are sincerely after the truth , Then truth may find you and if you are one of those who bury their head deep and call the world dark , Then im sorry i cannot help You.

PASHA

>>A non-muslim does not have a clear concept of God

As your deep understanding and profundity about the ‘concept of God’ has already made Him crazy, the God Himself is heaving a sigh of relief for that!

imran
chennai

in view of the fact that muslims are disliked and distrusted in india and the west, what exactly are
they and you prepared to do.

jinnah demanded pakistan, as a way to avoid exploitation by hindus. its fine with me. its fine if
muslims demand self rule in various areas of india,
and make progress in accordance with islam.

is there any one stopping you. would hindus stop you from immigrateing to muslim countries where you can
achieve great sucess. european countries are now prepareing to pay muslim immigrants money and a free ticket to leave their countries.they are simply
tired with constant complaints and a refual to make it.

are hindus stopping you from building modern schools, colleges, universities. no ofcource not but all that you do are to build madrassahs and mosques, grow beards
wear skull caps, and gathers in tens of thousands for
some silly reason. the poor women are locked behind
closed door with a clutter of children.

now some muslim bloggers point to the 12 the century
to show the greatness of muslim civilisation. its not
relavent. muslim rulers have not left any colleges,
universities or anything of any great use to india.
in delhi there is the red fort, jamma masjid, and then
a nummber of tombs, and masjids.

on the other hand the britts have left a permanent imprint in the fields of education, medicine, science
and law.they are the creators of modern india.

my firm belief is that the britts should have come earlier in india then they did and stayed longer, and the muslims never at all. muslims have become a permanent problem.

its obvious to all, and to muslims themselves. india has many problems, but this is one of the most serious.
not only are muslims opposed to india, but to modernity
and progress as well. this is the same whereever muslims live in nonmuslim countries and their own as well.one has to be blind not to see it, and stubborn
not to admit it. attn resident maulvi

In this world you make your own luck.The few educated & enlightened Indian Muslims should lead the way in encouraging their fellow Muslims to get educated, have small sustainable families,treat their supressed women as equals,away from the 'Burka'.Finally the Indian Muslims should stop yearning for Pakiland.The Indian Muslims settled in Karachi's filty slums are treated by the Sindhis & Panjabis as filthy & violent 'Mohajirs'.The Indian Muslims must escape the cluthes of self serving Muslim clerics.The Clerics would like their 'flock' to live in the Stone Age, like themselves.

Is singing of 'vande-matram' is a criteria of being patriot and will lead the Muslims towards moderisnism?

Is this song a show of patriotism, love, affection or reverence?

Idol-worship has many forms, it may be an image, icon, relic, idol, grave, or some times it may take the form of national hero, rivers, mountains , trees etc.

A non-muslim does not have a clear concept of God, the creator. He will not hesitate to worship 'telugu-Talli' in AP, statue of 'sitala-devi' in MP, Durga in bengal, Tuirupati in AP, linga in Karnataka , Vishnu in north India or Shiva in south India. Brief is to say, when he goes to River Gnages , he becomes Ganga ram and when he goes to river Jamuna-Das. For him changing loyalties ors howing reverence is of no greater significance, because he is always in wilderness , never trying to find the god who created him , who is providing him with his sustenance and who has bestowed him with the sense of cognition and reasoning to ponder as to why he is different from all the creatures, what is the purpose of his creation, and is there a life after death and how are we going to be rewarde for our good and bad deeds?

The comments here show how much hatred people have towards muslims, it indeed is very diffucult being muslim and surviving in India today. All these commentators are self proclaimed intelectualls who in reality know nothing about life, culture and religon. Get a life people, start loving and accomodating people with other faiths.

With due respect to all the viewers here , I only note most of the viewers have only made it visible by expressing their hatred towards Muslims and the word "Islam" . First of all if you rewind the time you would note that We muslims flourished in Trade aswell as Art and in all the field so much so Baghdad was considered as the Centre of Trade, Bin Sina was considered as the Father of Medicine at his time and Arabic was spoken widespread and it was an universal Language just like English is an Universal language today.Then time Muslims did not shun their religion on the other hand the Religion on which they have embarked on had disciplined them and made them pioneers in Every field they entered . Muslims taught Europe the civilizations, but unfortunately as "George, From UK " has rightly pointed out Muslims lives every where is falling apart it is not because the Religion has diverted their focus but inturn they have not understood the greatness in the religion which they have embarked upon. Also the economic conditions of Muslims are seriously worse in any field they are in . While i also note the strong dislike Gayatri takes towards Muslim when she express her censure and ridicules Muslims , Prabhu's views and his attitude in calling Spade a Spade is appreciated . Lastly i dont understand the media hype and fuss created by the word "Vande Mataram" When Muslims do not utter the word Vande Mataram it does not mean that they are not patriotic to the nation India nor does it mean that these filthy politicians who sing Vande Mataram passionately love their Country.

From ocean edge to mountain top where the chinars bloom from tagore country to gandhi gram we have noxious organizations that let off steam...as dilli chugs along making token gestures here and there.
the poor will sleep on empty bellies and the naked cower in the grass in the meanwhile.
where is the gathering of doctors and engineers and teachers where humanity and state compassion is showboated.

truly india is the land ruled by sinners of every hue, no caste no religion no class barred.
vande my poor mataram, for i have no other.

It is a sad thing and probably doom on Indian muslims that "The muslim clergy" is and was being projected as the representatives of Indian muslims. This certainly needs to change if the Indian muslims are to progress. We dont need clerics, imams, muezzins, fatwas, etc. We need to produce doctors, engineers, CAs, MBAs, who can carry the baton for Indian muslims and this surely cannot be achieved by the appeasement of muslim clerics and hardliners and their being projected as heroes of muslims by the Indian pseudo-secular establishment.

Spot on Saba!!!

The economic situation of the muslims of India have gone from bad to worse. One can safely lay the blame for this on - one, their own leaders who have done nothing whatsoever in context of bringing quality english medium education to their masses to build their lives.

And two, the brahmanical forces who have falsely perpetuated an imaginary enemy in the form of muslims to divert the anger of the suppressed dalitbahujan masses , who have suffered immensely under the Hindu caste system unto them, thus alienating them from mainstream India.

You are spot on in saying that there is a nexus between clerics, politicians and wheeler-dealers has created a small class of “sarkari Musalmans” who are now stakeholders in Muslim backwardness. It is here that the other set of Muslims like those from the business community and educated professionals need to step in and expose the nexus.

faruki

your comments are way off.

were there any muslims in usa in 17th century.

were there any in france in 9th century.

there is a huge difference between jews and muslims,
and for that matters hindus as well.

jews have been exceptionally talented, and were well
know for their intellectual activities several centuries ago.

muslims world wide are lagging behind for several reasons. religion takes up most of their time, and for the rest they are busy fighting with outsiders and with themselves.the poor women who should be bringing
up the next generation are kept behind closed doors.

there is no tolerance, no debates, and contrary views
are supressed. the muslims who are liberal are ignored,
under threat and are not allowed to influence their
community.

you reject criticism ,and are busy finding explanations
and excuses for your failures, and demoniseing critics.

it baffles me why you can not at the very least admit your faults and weaknesses. after some time people may stop targetting you, but will also ignore your existence.

that is what has happened in india. the congress and
so called secular parties treat you guys like retarded children,give you a few handouts, and then thats it.

people like me who would give you a few ideas are rejected off hand. its pathetic.

ps do you wear a skull cap. just curious.

your comments on bjp not promoteing secularism are off mark. bjp ruled india for 6 years, and rules over
several states today. all of them are promote education
and equality,free speech.......

yes,advani going to ajmer dargah to pay obeisance,secular that.
indian polity isnt secular,at the best its tolerant.secular is the state has no religion like in europe ,bjp and others use religious issues and symbols so the secular term will not hold on them.given their esposal of hate,they probably will be the fascist right.

one,one has to be careful since u can talk about anything with a muslim, but not religion......

yes,you should lay off there .

Dr.Zakir Naik says deen education is more important than any other education......

he isnt any authority,he is just a tv evangelist like benny hinn ,dont make him into some big celebrity.hes just an overgrown kid who likes verbal volleyball.

One third of muslim adult men have no jobs, for women the picture is more pathetic. The men do mostly menial jobs when they do any work.....

are you sure other communities dont do that.go to leicester and other places,you will change your views
,by the way whats great about what you do,who knows

I have never heard any muslim filmstar or politician say that muslims must forget madrasa education and embrace the scientific education.......

i didnt know there were no muslims in either scientific or intellectual community.look around carefully.
what have you achieved,you are a fascist ,education or not,it hasnt changed anything.

Barua,

>> One poster by the name Omar Khyyam: "Can a Muslim be a good citizen of a non-muslim nation?"

Muslims have lived in the U.S. since the 17th century, in France since the 9th century, and in India since the 7th century. Muslim rule in Spain was one of the spurs for European enlightenment. Muslim (and British) rules in India, irrespective of current revisionistic history, were among the major shapers of modern India. Worse things than what "Omar Khayyam" said about Muslims were being said about European Jews just a century ago. Since this forum already has mudslingers like Gayatri to do hate dissemination, do we need Omar Khayyams from other boards?

My last post in this silly thread!

faruki

your comments on bjp not promoteing secularism are off mark. bjp ruled india for 6 years, and rules over
several states today. all of them are promote education
and equality,free speech.

you have a bee in the bonnet about bjp.

you say congress should not deal with muslim clerics.
there are no other muslims they can deal with. even
educated muslims like you have the same mentality as
the mullahs. you have a narrow focus, which means your
only concerns are muslim concerns.

india should not expect any change or reform amongst
indian muslims for the next 50 years. pakistan is doomed and without aid from usa and the west would collapse. people would go hungry and thirsty. there
will be constant killings,burnings and the country
will be a liveing hell.

the future of muslims in south asia is very bleak.
the problem is that they will take all others down with
them.

educated muslims must reject most of the baggage of their stone age religion if they hope to live in
peace with nonmuslims.your defence of muslims right
or wrong is typical.thats why your community is stuck
fast.there are a handful of liberals, and most are scared to talk.

George,

>> "Anwar Mia from USA"

Only ill-bred idiots call me Anwar Mia.

Anwar Mia from USA

Secular muslims are very rare species,and whenever you find one,one has to be careful since u can talk about anything with a muslim, but not religion. That is the limit.

I would request Saba to enlighten us why muslims are so obsessed with religion. She is right that non-muslim politicians, even in UK,do not care about the muslims.they are only interested in their votes. This is because muslims are happy as long as they can get halal meat and pray in the mosque. Some medical scientists exploredthecause of large number of handicapped children born in thepakistanicommunity and they discovered that marriage between first cousins isone of the main reason as that encouragesinbreeding. And guess what.muslims started shouting that their religion is in danger. And any criticism ,even bymuslims,willbring death. Majority of the muslims are violent and intolearnt in nature.they have no respect for otherpeople's sentiment. You cannot question their beliefs. there are at least ten islam channels in the SKY network which propagate a regular dose of religion. Dr.Zakir Naik says deen education is more important than any other education. And muslims enjoy the sermon and do whatever he says. Muslims always accuse Indians of discriminating muslims in jobs. Here in UK,muslim children are always at the bottom of the scale in any development index. One third of muslim adult men have no jobs, for women the picture is more pathetic. The men do mostly menial jobs when they do any work. But they are not bothered. Muslims are extremely unfortunate that after Sir Syed Ahmed,there was no reformist in the community and the mullahs ahve hijacked the religion.
Muslim politicians are worse. They live on the poverty of their fellow muslims. I have never heard any muslim filmstar or politician say that muslims must forget madrasa education and embrace the scientific education.

You can straighten the tail of a dog (with some luck),but to change an orthodox muslim is next to impossible.

The seculars, especially Congressis, commit a rave error by associating themselves with Muslim clerics. It is the equivalent of encouraging the VHP! India's secular leaders should be serious about their secularism, and should affirm, foster and strengthen secular elements and secular organizations in the Muslim community.

The association of the BJP with the Sangh and the VHP is also regressive, but the BJP does not espouse secularism, and is committed to bringing Pakistani style theocracy to India.

The muslim clerics in India are generally fanatics. No doubt about it. So are most Hindu pandits.
In this particular incidence, Deoband wants Hindus to take notice and come after Muslims. So that they could remain protector of muslims and continue to be in the business.

But what sad and surprising is that Muslim population remain silent after hearing these non sense. The Mullahs make rule what muslim must talk, what to hear. Yet the muslim population behave like herd of sheep. I haven't heard any prominent Muslim, individual or organization, criticizing islam and embracing the Vande Mataram song. There is no difference between mosques and mafia.

Ms Naqvi... This is the reason, the BJP will always be a force to reckon with... The congress will always be trying to appease the minorities... And the Indian middle class hates this... The middle class will be forced to vote for the BJP... Even if the BJP doesnt win in 2014, in subsequent elections the BJP will surely win... So please dont write articles that are a result of wishful thinking or that make you look politically naive.....

The facts and information provided by Saba were very true.....Our politicians should focus on the development and modernization of Muslims and people of other caste(Hindus , Sikh...) who are still being dominated by their centuries old religion . They follow everything taught to them on the name of religion blindly which results in the development of radical elements among them......I think every one should be tough to follow "Nation above everything".....I think every citizen should propel himself and should work for his development which will ultimately led to the development of our nation....our Govt. should focus on better education of Muslims and other peoples which could invoke their participation ...so that they can take up cudgels for the nation-a challange that will put them on the path of prosperty.......Every Muslim should take initiative in bringing glory to nation which will ultimately enlighten him with prosperty and his development.

She is so right for a change..
Remember A B Vajpayee's words to NewYork Times.. IF politicians keep talking all the time muslim muslim people are bound to ask is it going to be crime to be Hindu in this country.



Best bet is sentiments of people like Modi: I do not do anything for any particualr community I do whatever I do for 5.5 crore Gujrati.. The day federal govt gets this message all problem will be solved..

Saba Naqvi needs to be congratulated for exposing the stupidity of the politicians, pampering to the semi-literate,reactionary Mullahs.The Muslims need to be rescued from the grip of their clerics,who stop the Muslim masses from joining the main stream of Indian life & enjoy the freedom of a secular life.Vote bank politics of the politicians ,blinds them from looking after the needs of the backward Muslim population.The Muslim clerics & their political patrons are responsible for the backwardness of the Muslims.

the situation is very bad,springs from the fact that the polity is not secular.otherwise why appease or cultivate the clerics.
mahmood madani for example is an embarrasment ,typical sarkari uncle tom ,during the india today conclave when pervez musharraf was the guest,his faux pas foot in the mouth was embarrasing.
one wondered what led him to behave like that and be marked openly by musharraf as hypocrite.which the maulana took lying down.
watching it i wondered,was there no one else who could have been there and said things properly than this turbaned maulana.
very few i guess have made it,but why him,a person so intellectually callow and bereft of propriety and protocol.
then i realised musharraf too was from delhi,and a friend remarked that would musharraf have risen to where he is professionally if he lived in delhi,might have been running a chicken tikka and kabab shop probably in darya ganj i thought.i guess i would have to agree.

saba

sensible.

muslims like all other humans have many similar desires, and religion is just one of them.

muslims should quite frankly dump a part of their religious baggage. muslim men should be playing tennis,cricket and football.

muslim women shoul dress in modern style, and claim
equsl opportunities .

to hell with the mullahs,fatwas and the fake modernists
who play both sides of the game. attn. the resident
maulvi.

Saba has openly flouted the century long political meagreness; that’s the attitude (clerics on top) we’ve been experiencing all over the political arena of this subcontinent from time immemorial. The politicians always exploited a significant part of aam-janata by brazenly supporting such clerics’ quackery. But the cooled down aam-janata cannot realize that politicians generally have secret hammers hidden under their sleeves for beating them to powder using such religious sensitivity.

Saba has openly flouted the century long political meagreness; that’s the attitude (clerics on top) we’ve been experiencing all over the political arena of this subcontinent from time immemorial. The politicians always exploited a significant part of aam-janata by brazenly supporting such clerics’ quackery. But the cooled down aam-janata cannot realize that politicians generally have secret hammers hidden under their sleeves for beating them to powder using such religious sensitivity.

saba

sensible.

muslims like all other humans have many similar desires, and religion is just one of them.

muslims should quite frankly dump a part of their religious baggage. muslim men should be playing tennis,cricket and football.

muslim women shoul dress in modern style, and claim
equsl opportunities .

to hell with the mullahs,fatwas and the fake modernists
who play both sides of the game. attn. the resident
maulvi.

the situation is very bad,springs from the fact that the polity is not secular.otherwise why appease or cultivate the clerics.
mahmood madani for example is an embarrasment ,typical sarkari uncle tom ,during the india today conclave when pervez musharraf was the guest,his faux pas foot in the mouth was embarrasing.
one wondered what led him to behave like that and be marked openly by musharraf as hypocrite.which the maulana took lying down.
watching it i wondered,was there no one else who could have been there and said things properly than this turbaned maulana.
very few i guess have made it,but why him,a person so intellectually callow and bereft of propriety and protocol.
then i realised musharraf too was from delhi,and a friend remarked that would musharraf have risen to where he is professionally if he lived in delhi,might have been running a chicken tikka and kabab shop probably in darya ganj i thought.i guess i would have to agree.

Saba Naqvi needs to be congratulated for exposing the stupidity of the politicians, pampering to the semi-literate,reactionary Mullahs.The Muslims need to be rescued from the grip of their clerics,who stop the Muslim masses from joining the main stream of Indian life & enjoy the freedom of a secular life.Vote bank politics of the politicians ,blinds them from looking after the needs of the backward Muslim population.The Muslim clerics & their political patrons are responsible for the backwardness of the Muslims.

She is so right for a change..
Remember A B Vajpayee's words to NewYork Times.. IF politicians keep talking all the time muslim muslim people are bound to ask is it going to be crime to be Hindu in this country.



Best bet is sentiments of people like Modi: I do not do anything for any particualr community I do whatever I do for 5.5 crore Gujrati.. The day federal govt gets this message all problem will be solved..

The facts and information provided by Saba were very true.....Our politicians should focus on the development and modernization of Muslims and people of other caste(Hindus , Sikh...) who are still being dominated by their centuries old religion . They follow everything taught to them on the name of religion blindly which results in the development of radical elements among them......I think every one should be tough to follow "Nation above everything".....I think every citizen should propel himself and should work for his development which will ultimately led to the development of our nation....our Govt. should focus on better education of Muslims and other peoples which could invoke their participation ...so that they can take up cudgels for the nation-a challange that will put them on the path of prosperty.......Every Muslim should take initiative in bringing glory to nation which will ultimately enlighten him with prosperty and his development.

Ms Naqvi... This is the reason, the BJP will always be a force to reckon with... The congress will always be trying to appease the minorities... And the Indian middle class hates this... The middle class will be forced to vote for the BJP... Even if the BJP doesnt win in 2014, in subsequent elections the BJP will surely win... So please dont write articles that are a result of wishful thinking or that make you look politically naive.....

The muslim clerics in India are generally fanatics. No doubt about it. So are most Hindu pandits.
In this particular incidence, Deoband wants Hindus to take notice and come after Muslims. So that they could remain protector of muslims and continue to be in the business.

But what sad and surprising is that Muslim population remain silent after hearing these non sense. The Mullahs make rule what muslim must talk, what to hear. Yet the muslim population behave like herd of sheep. I haven't heard any prominent Muslim, individual or organization, criticizing islam and embracing the Vande Mataram song. There is no difference between mosques and mafia.

The seculars, especially Congressis, commit a rave error by associating themselves with Muslim clerics. It is the equivalent of encouraging the VHP! India's secular leaders should be serious about their secularism, and should affirm, foster and strengthen secular elements and secular organizations in the Muslim community.

The association of the BJP with the Sangh and the VHP is also regressive, but the BJP does not espouse secularism, and is committed to bringing Pakistani style theocracy to India.

I would request Saba to enlighten us why muslims are so obsessed with religion. She is right that non-muslim politicians, even in UK,do not care about the muslims.they are only interested in their votes. This is because muslims are happy as long as they can get halal meat and pray in the mosque. Some medical scientists exploredthecause of large number of handicapped children born in thepakistanicommunity and they discovered that marriage between first cousins isone of the main reason as that encouragesinbreeding. And guess what.muslims started shouting that their religion is in danger. And any criticism ,even bymuslims,willbring death. Majority of the muslims are violent and intolearnt in nature.they have no respect for otherpeople's sentiment. You cannot question their beliefs. there are at least ten islam channels in the SKY network which propagate a regular dose of religion. Dr.Zakir Naik says deen education is more important than any other education. And muslims enjoy the sermon and do whatever he says. Muslims always accuse Indians of discriminating muslims in jobs. Here in UK,muslim children are always at the bottom of the scale in any development index. One third of muslim adult men have no jobs, for women the picture is more pathetic. The men do mostly menial jobs when they do any work. But they are not bothered. Muslims are extremely unfortunate that after Sir Syed Ahmed,there was no reformist in the community and the mullahs ahve hijacked the religion.
Muslim politicians are worse. They live on the poverty of their fellow muslims. I have never heard any muslim filmstar or politician say that muslims must forget madrasa education and embrace the scientific education.

You can straighten the tail of a dog (with some luck),but to change an orthodox muslim is next to impossible.

Anwar Mia from USA

Secular muslims are very rare species,and whenever you find one,one has to be careful since u can talk about anything with a muslim, but not religion. That is the limit.

George,

>> "Anwar Mia from USA"

Only ill-bred idiots call me Anwar Mia.