U.B. Photos
Seeing red?: An Indian soldier looks out across the Indo-China border
the india complex
A Cure For Our Sinositis?
Is it paranoia or just plain old envy because China has surged far ahead of us in every field?
Arunachal pradesh
With India having given them nothing but neglect, the Arunachalis wonder if they’d have been better off with China
Saikat Datta
Arunachal pradesh
The Centre may put up a show of good intention, but it seldom comes to any sort of fruition
Outlook
tawang
China’s stand on Tawang lies inextricably close to its suspicions of India’s intentions on Tibet. Therein lies the rub....
Pranay Sharma
opinion
Let there be no war. Let bhai-bhai one-upmanship last forever.
Mohan Guruswamy
china eye view
The Indian media reserves its vitriol for China. It’s horribly unfair.
Wang Yaodong
bilateral trade
Trade is growing. But a closer look finds India chafing at inequalities.
Lola Nayar
Column
A stronger India must counter China with open-minded caution
K.S. Bajpai
Tawang
It’s one neighbour we love to hate. Be it reports about “intrusion” across the Line of Actual Control, or surreptitious attempts to bring in “cheap labour” for Indian projects, or behind-the-scenes attempts to break ranks with the developing world on climate change negotiations, China-bashing is the flavour of the season. It seems this season is likely to last long. Sure, many Indians detest Pakistan and distrust Bangladesh, but they don’t fear or envy these smaller neighbours, being quite confident of India’s supremacy.

The hatred for China is different: it’s a mix of deep dislike, suspicion and envy. Most Indians know that China has forged far ahead (see infographic), it’s a heavyweight in comparison to their own country, a superpower in the making. Could it be that Indians suffer from a Sino complex? Says Alka Acharya of the Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, “Even if you don’t want to describe it as an inferiority complex, there’s no denying that there is a bit of unease in the Indian mind about China. We are constantly looking over our shoulders at China.”

 
 
The gap between India and China hurts because both had arrived on the world stage at more or less the same time.
 
 
The Indian foreign policy establishment doesn’t deny the close watch it keeps on China, claiming it’s a worldwide practice to keep tabs on neighbours, particularly powerful ones. “India has a certain vision of its place in the world,” says a South Block official. Experts, however, feel this looking over our shoulders is more because of the growing “asymmetry” in our relations with China. The gap between India and China hurts because both had arrived on the international stage at the same time—India became independent in 1947, the People’s Republic of China was born in 1949.

Initially, India had led China on many socio-economic parameters. But following its economic reforms in 1979, China fast outpaced India in just about every field. “There is admiration on the one hand and a kind of envy on the other, especially among sections of the Indian elite at the Chinese ability to be flexible enough to take quick decisions on key issues,” says Acharya.


Save Tibet souls: Dalai Lama followers at a peace march in Delhi

Some feel the origin of this “complex” can be traced back to the Sino-Indian war of 1962. As former foreign minister and BJP leader Yashwant Sinha points out, “The 1962 war and the humiliation we suffered have left a deep scar on Indian minds. Indians haven’t forgotten 1962.” This memory is galling because many Indians feel that New Delhi often “bends over backwards” to accommodate the Chinese on issues such as Tibet. To bolster their argument, they cite the example of the security arrangement New Delhi put in place last year to prevent the Tibetan Youth Congress from creating trouble during the Olympic torch rally.

***

Plainspeaking Stats

  China India

Gross Domestic Product ($ bn) 3,250.20 1,311.90
Annual growth rate (GDP) 9.40% 6.20%
Population below $1 a day 16.60% 34.70%
Population below $2 a day 46.70% 52.40%
Human Development Index world rank 81st 128th
Adult literacy 91% 61%
PhDs in science and engg each year 15,000 6,000
Training and vocational institutes 5,00,000 12,000

Health
Health expenditure per capita $71.00 $31.00
Child mortality (under five years per 1,000) 24 76.00
Life expectancy (male) in years 70.8 63.20
Life expectancy (female) 74.6 66.70

Infrastructure
Electricity production (bn kWh) 2,199.60 667.80
Electricity consumption per capita (kWh) 1,585.00 457.00
Rail route (km) 62,200.00 63,465.00
Road network (km) 14,02,698 33,19,644

Sectoral break-up of GDP
Agriculture 11.80% 18.50%
Industry 48.70% 26.40%
Services 39.50% 55.10%
Foreign reserves ($ bn) 1,951 250
Defence budget ($ bn) 84.9 30

Agricultural and Industrial Production (Million tonnes/year)
Foodgrains 418 210
Steel 163 29
Cement 650 109
Crude oil 160 40
Coal 1,300 300

Trade
Exports ($ bn) 1,465 176
Imports ($ bn) 1,156 287
Indo-China trade volume $51.8 bn  
India's balance of trade with China -$11.2 bn  

***

“China’s ambition,” says Yashwant, “is to become the sole power in Asia and, ultimately, the superpower in the world. To achieve this, it will do anything to scuttle India’s growth and progress.” Though ruling out a war between India and China, he still insists New Delhi must remain cautious about Beijing’s designs. The remark testifies eloquently to the fear and suspicion that Indians harbour against China.

 
 
“Being hyphenated with Pakistan we may hate but not the term Chindia. We like being clubbed with the rich.”—Yashwant Sinha, Ex-foreign minister
 
 
Of course, China has been guilty of fanning these suspicions at times. Take, for example, its abortive bid to block the India-specific “waiver” at the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) meeting in Vienna in September last year. This year, it tried to block an Asian Development Bank funding of a project in Arunachal Pradesh. More recently, its embassy in New Delhi has been issuing visas to the residents of Arunachal Pradesh and Kashmir on separate pages instead of stamping it on passports. Experts feel these incidents have deepened the strains in Sino-Indian relations, questioning as they do the status of Arunachal Pradesh and, more importantly, Kashmir.

“It cannot be a simple ‘black-and-white’ policy. We need a multi-layered approach to deal with China,” argues former diplomat Naresh Chandra. He says that while India needs to keep vigil along its borders with China, it can’t deal with its neighbour only by looking at it through the prism of security. “The 1962 hangover should help us in strengthening our borders, but it should not cloud our views about improving ties with China and identifying areas where we can cooperate with each other for our mutual benefit.”

Chandra feels the public obsession with China is partly because the debate over Sino-India relations is uninformed. Citing the example of the controversy over “Chinese workers” in the Indian labour market, he points out, “It was a great opportunity for India to build and deepen contacts with China. Instead, the entire issue got mired in an emotional debate.” He says India’s response on the labour issue reflects the confusion prevailing in New Delhi about how to handle China. “If a decision was taken to award contracts to Chinese firms, then why make things difficult for them by raising issues like visa or cheap labour?” he asks.


Eagle eyes: A Chinese soldier keeps vigil on the Arunachal border

Partly, the problem stems from the low level of contact that Indians have with China. “We are a billion-plus people, but what is the level of contact we have with China?” Chandra thinks Indians can make a proper assessment of China only if they stop “moaning and groaning” and do a proper study of the developments there.

 
 
“If a decision was made to award contracts to China, then why bring up issues like visas or cheap labour?”
 
 
There’s also a dichotomy in the Indian approach towards China. Those Indians who hate the West’s attempt to hyphenate India with Pakistan don’t object to terms such as “Chindia”, often used in reference to the impressive economic growth of the two Asian neighbours. “It’s normal for an Indian to disapprove any attempt to bracket him with someone poorer. But the same person may not mind when he’s being clubbed with someone richer than him,” explains Yashwant.

Some Indian policy planners say it’s natural for some brinkmanship to creep into relations between two neighbours because of their past history. But the leadership in both countries has now come to realise that there’s enough space for both to grow. Moreover, there’s an acceptance in India and China that there are many areas—energy security, climate change and WTO negotiations—where both can cooperate in mutually beneficial ways.

“The world is big enough to accommodate both India and China,” says a senior foreign ministry official. India needs to overcome its complex, pull up its socks and develop in accordance with its own capabilities.

Arunachal pradesh
With India having given them nothing but neglect, the Arunachalis wonder if they’d have been better off with China
Saikat Datta
Arunachal pradesh
The Centre may put up a show of good intention, but it seldom comes to any sort of fruition
Outlook
tawang
China’s stand on Tawang lies inextricably close to its suspicions of India’s intentions on Tibet. Therein lies the rub....
Pranay Sharma
opinion
Let there be no war. Let bhai-bhai one-upmanship last forever.
Mohan Guruswamy
china eye view
The Indian media reserves its vitriol for China. It’s horribly unfair.
Wang Yaodong
bilateral trade
Trade is growing. But a closer look finds India chafing at inequalities.
Lola Nayar
Column
A stronger India must counter China with open-minded caution
K.S. Bajpai
Tawang
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Nov 15, 2009 01:57 AM
54
SCARIA:

God help your employers if you bring to your work the same kind of sixth-rate mind revealed in your attempts at political analysis here.

Just repeating "India will win because India is a democracy" will satisfy sheep, but not thinking people.

The British when facing the Germans in World War Two did not take it for granted they would win because they were a democracy and Germany was a totalitarian dictatorship. No, they saw to it with hard work that the Royal Air Force and Navy were superior to Germany's forces.

The US when competing with Russia in the Cold War certainly did not take victory fpor granted because Russia was a dictatorship. They saw to it that their economy functioned far better.

Indians, unfortunately, uses the word "democracy" as a way to go to sleep and not think.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 14, 2009 05:33 AM
53
Hi VARUN

Thank you for your kind words. Due to my heavy work schedules that involve jetting most of the time within Australia and overseas, time is not on my side to pen my ideas on paper.

I have read so many comparisons made by foreign media between India and China and extolling China and her phenomenal economic growth. They are conveniently or purposely ignoring the fact that India is a functioning democracy and things will only move on a snail phase. On the other hand, China is ruled by a totalitarian regime and can make changes faster by railroading peoples’ rights at the point of guns.

Indian citizenry’s deep-rooted belief in democracy was exemplified by their abhorrence to Mrs. Indira Gandhi’s Emergency rule and her ousting through the ballot papers.

As is says “slow and steady wins the race”, India will win the race. The key word here is steady. India is steady with her democratic moorings are built on a strong foundation and her superstructure is steady, whereas totalitarian china in on a shaky ground with no foundation and the superstructure is weak and eventually collapse.

Again, like the hare and tortoise story, India is the tortoise and she will win in the race in the end. India is like a long distance runner who has planned her race and making her own phase from the start to win the race.
Scaria Varghese
Melbourne, Australia
Nov 13, 2009 11:43 PM
52
Scaria, you are obviously an erudite and eloquent writer. There are, as I'm sure you're aware, other forums besides Outlook, where India-China comparisons and debates are taking place. With your wit and knowledge, you could easily rebut and rebuke some of real crude, lowbrow messages that appear in, for example, the message board of "Businessweek", the American business magazine. Anytime there is an China-India comparison or article, out come the Chinese drones with their crude propaganda. And sadly, some crude Americans join in and denigrate India as well. Quality messages such as yours would be immensely helpful and welcome.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 13, 2009 12:57 PM
51
Envy is perception, so is rivalry. It would be petty minded for India, to look at China as a rival, or to feel envious of China. This is what I personally feel. Neither India, nor China, should make their attention wander from their own legitimate domestic preoccupation's of internal peace. What need does China have to comment about India, when her comment's should be directed to her domestic audience? Why should the dealings between India and other nation's bother China, and vice versa? India cannot control completely, China's foreign relation's, and nor can China, control India's. If India and China were to feel envy towards each other, and were to destroy each other, then would it be acceptable to either India, or China?
Aditya Mookerjee
Belgaum, India
Nov 13, 2009 10:29 AM
50
Thanks Scaria, those two quotes are illuminating.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 13, 2009 10:06 AM
49
Hi VARUN

The following is nugget of wisdoms of two eminent Chinese men:

Lyn Yutang, Chinese writer, 1895-1976: “India was China’s teacher in religion and imaginative literature and world’s teacher in Trigonometry, Quadratic equations, grammar, phonetics, Arabian Nights, Animal feebles, chess as well as in philosophy and she inspired Boccaccio, Goethe, Schopenhauer and Emerson.

Hu Shih, former ambassador of China to USA, 1891-1962: “India conquered and dominated China culturally over 20 centuries without having to send a single soldier across her border
Scaria Varghese
Melbourne, Australia
Nov 13, 2009 08:57 AM
48
Ganapathi, except for cuisine( where the Indian influence was confined to the use of a few spices, and sugar) the answer to your questions is "yes"! India impacted China in religion, philosophy, language and literature and art. I will present details another time. I do recommend a great book called "India and World Civilisation" ( 1969) by D.P Singhal, which gives the details of the major impact India had on China. Of course, China also has a developed culture, but the fact of Indian influence on it cannot be denied.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 13, 2009 07:12 AM
47
the historical Indian huge influence on China is a fact; it was admitted very eloquently by a former Chinese ambassador to the US, who said that the events of the 20th century
varun
can u list out the facts.did chinese language chnage with sanskrit/hindi words.did their diet habits change.did their relgion change(they remain buddhists unlike people here who get converted enmasse according to their rulers.did their building architecture follow any indian pattern.the fact is mughal rule changed quiet a lot in india which is a fact and more by the british and there is very little of the barbaric practises of ur gloriuos india left after ambedkar.the most colonized culturally/relgiously/language wise changing nation in the world is india and its funny to say that we influenced others while the truth is opposite.
ganapathi
chennai, India
Nov 13, 2009 02:25 AM
46
Hi VARUN

I accept your points completely. As far as Xinjiang’ ethnic Uighurs Muslim minorities are concerned, they are being ruthlessly suppressed to the extent that their resentments are simmering and will finally boil over to the undoing of the Chinese totalitarian regime. China is also sitting on a time bomb on other matters and detonation of the bomb is only a matter of time.

I have been reading blogs of my fellow bloggers pertaining to China’s remarkable progress. Once again, may I point out that China has a totalitarian regime that can make changes with a stroke of a pen and at gun point. India is a democracy where things will only move on a snail pace.
Scaria Varghese
Melbourne, Australia
Nov 12, 2009 08:54 PM
45
Scaria,Momeen makes a good point about China being a strong bullwork against Islamism. But China also cynically exploits Islamism to advance its own interests.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 12, 2009 04:45 PM
44
rashid

malnutrition of children in india is a result of insufficient food.

insufficient food is a resuly of not enough supply
and greater demand.

insufficient supply is a result of poor farming,
not enough irrigation.

there is increaseing demand because of population growth.

china has increased productoion of food,through better
agricultural production, and controlled population
with their one child policy.

simple dr watson.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 12, 2009 04:34 AM
43
HI MOMEEN RASHID

After having read so many of your threads which are boring, China centric-extolling China- and India bashing. With due respect, recognising your democratic rights, your threads only have nuisance value. People like you are more dangerous than some misguided Muslims in India have gone astray and promoting violence. People like you are a danger to congeniality among Indian citizenry by accusing Muslims as Islamists and terrorists. My request to you is please don’t make a terrorists out of them. If China is the land of milk and honey, you still have the option to move there.
Scaria Varghese
Melbourne, Australia
Nov 12, 2009 02:55 AM
42
If China does so well by copying India, why can't India lower its terrifying child malnutrition rates at least to Sub-Saharan African levels by copying China?
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 12, 2009 02:54 AM
41
VARUN:

If India is such a pioneer why is it so hopelessly behind China in every indicator of economic development?
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 11, 2009 10:00 PM
40
Ganapathi, the historical Indian huge influence on China is a fact; it was admitted very eloquently by a former Chinese ambassador to the US, who said that the events of the 20th century( i.e communism etc) ended 2,000 years of China being dominated by India- a domination that was achieved, incidentally, without sending a single soldier or colonist. The word domination is probably too strong, and the term 'heavily influenced' is much more appropriate.
In modern times, China has either taken its cue from, or certainly followed India in just about every industry or service you care to mention. Steel, automobiles, aluminum, nuclear energy, textiles, paper, newsprint, railways and their corollaries( coach factories et al), cement, toys.. More recently, India has been a pioneer in Asia in IT, Wind Energy, Granite. In sports, India was the first in Asia to play table tennis( for which the Chinese are renown), badminton, tennis, soccer. But the Chinese with their regimentation and single-mindedness have excelled more at these activities. Once India announced plans for a moon mission, China went all-out and scrambled to ensure it would reach the moon first; in education, China is trying to build institutes on the lines of the IIT's.
In all these cases, China looks at what India does, then tries to match and surpass India. It should be obvious to Indians that whatever airs the Chinese put on about not being concerned about India, or not seeing India as a competitor, China very keenly watches what India does and then unleashes its regimented, single-minded, cut-throat competition on India.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 11, 2009 09:16 PM
39
historically india had culturally colonized china so much so that so many chinese considered india their spiritual home and made pilgrimages and even moved near it - that is where most of those who currently live in our north east came from.

nandakumar
when will u stop being so racist as this comment is racism in purest form.ur comedy of india dominating in all needs to be laughed with all parts of the body. was there no plague/leprosy in ur glorious india or where they travelling by planes and had new methods of delivering childs so that no women died during delivery. did they have any advanced weapons.were they the first to summit everest or any peak for that matter.how come u have no shame in repeating such comedies.
ganapathi
chennai, India
Nov 11, 2009 05:43 PM
38
>>>the way indian leaders dress, talk is explanation enough of their mindset.many are steeped in old customs, old theories

Lalit

As a college student I used to tell my friends that this country would see real progress only when a modern and normal dressed politician comes to the helm. I despise the baggy khadi dress of our pot bellied pan chewing politicos.
You can recall Andhra Pradesh saw some progress and flashy days of modern development when Chandra Babu took over as CM. He is one of those normal dressed persons!!

Wearing Khadi by present politicians is symbolic of only fake nationalism and anti progress. I see only hypocrisy among the them who wear khadi.

Only Gandhi was qualified to wear Khadi considering his honesty. All others are hoodwinkers and this country will not see any respectable development until our politicians too change to modernism symbolised by their dress to merge in the crowd than stand out like sore thumb as they are now in any forum in their achkins and that stupid looking sleeveless jacket on kurta.
sandilya
Chennai, India
Nov 11, 2009 03:55 PM
37
reasons for difference is that china has a leadership which is very focussed on action, and not on mouthing
slogans -

the way indian leaders dress, talk is explanation enough of their mindset.many are steeped in old customs, old theories, and with a chalta hai attude.
they keep on pandering to maulvis, sadhus and are scared of modernity.

outlook is a representative of the old fashioned
thinking . they have nothing new to say. yesterdays dinner is served for lunch.

the govt at the centre is the same. old slogans of
secularism, socialism, the benighted aam admi are played like a worn out record time and again.

furthermore india has huge numbers of backward and
supersticious people of all religions. they are a
permanent brake on progress. how can caste ridden mayawati, lalloo ram compete with the ruthless leaders
from peking. never.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Nov 11, 2009 11:12 AM
36
MOMEEN RASHID

Fellow Indian Muslim brothers and sisters are not terrorists and are law abiding citizens. After the Barbari Masjid demolition, some hotheads have gone astray and have advocated violence. There are some Hindu hotheads who have engaged in violent activities as well. Terrorists come from all walks of life and they neither have nationality nor have religion. They are a bunch of undesirables determined to create mayhem and kill innocent people for their sadistic pleasure. Just like a person afflicted with Jaundice see everything yellow, MOMEEN RASHID, you seem to have some antipathy towards Muslims and branding them as Islamists and terrorists. Calm down and treat your fellow human beings with respect and they respect you in return.
Scaria Varghese
Melbourne, Australia
Nov 11, 2009 03:12 AM
35
SCARIA:

If there were more, India's position would not be so miserable.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 11, 2009 01:53 AM
34
Hi ANWAAR

What can I say? Some mothers do have sons like Momeen Rashid.
Scaria Varghese
Melbourne, Australia
Nov 11, 2009 12:45 AM
33
Pepple like Naresh Chandra should site examples where India did anything to anger China till now except for greasing up our backs and bending before them. None what so ever. Even we had foregone our own soverignity in our own country to please China and look how India is treated by the Chinks. India should prepare itself to have an assured victorious militay campaign on the Himalayas, come what may and what ever be the costs. Then wait for China to provide an opportunity.
If I am allowed to properly plan, I can accomplish a victory with a preparatory period of just two years. I
M. Srinivasulu
Hyderabad, India
Nov 10, 2009 07:06 PM
32
China is great. We need at least ONE strong, non-Muslim nation in this world.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 10, 2009 07:04 PM
31
SCARIA:

Islamists are dangerous, very hard people. Those who don't have guts cannot cope with them. The Chinese have the tougness to handle them.

There are some people too hard to be treated otherwise than ruthlessly. That includes Islamists and Nazis.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 10, 2009 06:30 PM
30
SCARIA:

I am glad isucceeded in cooling down all the frothing Indian hotheads about China and the Indian North-East. I simply pointed out that the real issue is not China, but Islamism.

You really want to know whether I wish to live in China?

The answer is, definitely, compared to being ruled by Islamists.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 10, 2009 11:09 AM
29
>The North-Easter states don't face a choice of Indian >democracy or Chinese dictatorship. Indian rule brings >Bangladeshi Muslim takeover with it. India is too >corrupt, lazy and inefficient to prevent Bangladeshi >Muslim colonisation of the North-East. Assam is well >on its way to Muslim majority. After that, bye bye >Hindus and Buddhists of Assam.

better for indians to take their chances with their politicians and do something to stem bangladeshi migration and try to hold their territory, than lose it all at once to the chinese.
nandakumar
chennai, india
Nov 10, 2009 08:13 AM
28
Yes, China is a stronger country than India right now. China is very ambitious and determined, almost ruthless to succeed at any price. I don't mind their success, good luck to them. My only wish is they don't bully others around them. If they are not aggressive towards India, I have no jealousy for them, they deserve success for their hard work.
dharma
Toronto, Canada
Nov 10, 2009 06:47 AM
27
Indians overwhelmingly would spurn any suggestion that the Dalai Lama should be expelled from India. It is therefor a crying shame that a poster, who has been actively spewing hatred against Muslims for years, is now, under an assumed Muslim name, advocating removal of the Dalai Lama from India. A few years ago, under another Muslim name, he was savagely attacking Hindus and inviting me to join him in his vicious anti-Hindu crusade, presumably hoping to alienate me from the Hindus in the forum!

The idea that Hindus need to seek the protection of the Chinese against Muslims is not just asinine but absurd. Envisaging the possiblity of Hindus, Muslims and Chinese living cooperatively would never occur to him.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 10, 2009 06:20 AM
26
MOMEEN RASHID, you haven’t answered my question: would you like to live in China? If the answer is in the affirmative, do you think you can express your views as freely as you do here? You know very well that you couldn’t. You will be in the statistics of those are summarily executed. So enjoy your freedom in India.
Scaria Varghese
Melbourne, Australia
Nov 10, 2009 05:43 AM
25
HI MOMEEN RASHID

Hallelujah! Praise the Lord

You are praising and promoting summary executions in China. Killing nine leaders of the Islamic Uighur rebellion in China is only a drop in the ocean compared to on average 8000 people are summarily executed without trial-to prove their innocence or otherwise. This is the totalitarian Chinese justice.

How would you feel if you or your relative is being summarily sentenced to death without proper trial? During the Olympics, Chinese totalitarian regime reluctantly allowed the foreign media in to cover the Olympics-it was one of the conditionalities of the International Olympic committee sanctioning Olympics at Beijing. Even though Big Brother was on constant watch on the foreign media, couple of them strayed and let the cat out of the bag: statistics showed on average 8000 people are summarily executed and their survivors-wives and children-are left to fend for themselves. I watched on the TV an American media outlet visiting one of such survivors and showing how atrocious conditions they were living in.

MOMEEN RASHID, do you believe killing nine leaders of the Islamic Uighur will solve the Uighur problem? The Uighur problem and other simmering problems will finally boil over and bring the death knell of the fuddy Duddies of China.
Scaria Varghese
Melbourne, Australia
Nov 10, 2009 04:11 AM
24
NANDAKUMAR:

Wherever Chinese rule, Islamists have zero chances. China yesterday executed nine leaders of the Islamic Uighur rebellion in China.

The North-Easter states don't face a choice of Indian democracy or Chinese dictatorship. Indian rule brings Bangladeshi Muslim takeover with it. India is too corrupt, lazy and inefficient to prevent Bangladeshi Muslim colonisation of the North-East. Assam is well on its way to Muslim majority. After that, bye bye Hindus and Buddhists of Assam.

So that is why many in the North-East look to China. At least under China, Islamists will be kept out.

Even Tibetans will be grateful to China in the long run - for saving them from Islamism.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 09, 2009 09:31 AM
23
what is chinese historical contribution to world culture?

gun powder? yet they didn't invent guns.

silk?

kung fu? even this was borrowed from india historically.

what else?

india in contrast dominated the ancient world in philosophy, science, math, astronomy, literature etc. historically india had culturally colonized china so much so that so many chinese considered india their spiritual home and made pilgrimages and even moved near it - that is where most of those who currently live in our north east came from.

today china has grown rich by making cheap consumer products for the west (already in india these products are scorned for their poor quality). but how long will it last?

india's growth in contrast is much more based on the dynamics within the country, much more planned and caliberated and steady.

india's growth is assured. but is china's?
nandakumar
chennai, india
Nov 09, 2009 09:20 AM
22
china may be ahead now. but it is only a matter of time before india catches up. and india has managed to resolve or atleast address some really thorny soceital/institutional/policy issues, that china hasn't even begun to accept/recognize as issues, leave alone address - and china will inevitably stumble due to this.
nandakumar
chennai, india
Nov 09, 2009 09:17 AM
21
typical jnu mumbojumbo. are we paranoid about china without cause? 1962? arming pak with nulclear tech and missiles? meddling in our north east? scuttling actions in the UN against jihadi groups? trying to scuttle our loan with ADB for development in arunachal?

a war is not fought merely on the battlefield. also in the mind of the opponent. the "fourth estate" is well and active in subverting our natural reaction to hostile chinese moves.
nandakumar
chennai, india
Nov 09, 2009 06:34 AM
20
HI MK SAINI

You are absolutely correct that I migrated to Australia. Here I am relaxed and comfortable and having a laidback lifestyle. No, I wouldn’t like to live in China because I am a freedom loving person. Moreover, I detest communism that is a modern anachronism and never succeeded anywhere in the world.

Even though I am here, I am always aware of what is happening in India through Indian satellite TV channels. I can understand your frustrations and I feel likewise-sometimes I feel like strangling the corrupt politicos, especially the once in my home state, Kerala.
Scaria Varghese
Melbourne, Australia
Nov 09, 2009 06:01 AM
19
MOMEEN RASHID

Everything is not hunky-dory as you perceive in China. China is facing internal insecurity problems as well- the recent Xinjiang unrest where one of the biggest ethnic Uighurs minorities- mainly about 10 million Muslims-in China were in open rebellion against the Chinese rule is only the harbinger for what is in the offing for the totalitarian regime. The unrest led China's President Hu Jintao abandoning the G 8 meeting and making the beeline- returning to China.

Furthermore, on Thursday, July 02, 2009 tens of thousands of people took to Hong Kong's streets for the annual pro-democracy march, as the city marked the 12th anniversary of its return to China. There was also record turnout of 150,000 at the candlelight vigil last month to mark the 20th anniversary of the bloody crackdown on protests in Beijing's Tiananmen Square. Freedom loving people of Hong Kong couldn’t be suppressed by the Chinese totalitarian regime for long because they enjoyed freedom before the Chinese takeover.

There will be a snowballing effect-bottled up frustrations of the citizenry-including the suppressed minorities-will spill on to the streets to ring the death-knell of the Chinese commissars. Aggrieved and angered people exercise their power-people power- spontaneously and it is insurmountable; Dictator Ferdinand Marcos’s demise and totalitarian Nicolae Ceauescu’s slain served to enhance this.

Your question- can India withstand a Chinese attack? It is interesting. Present day Indian army is not weak as the one China had confronted in 1962. Present day Indian army is well equipped with modern weaponry, mean and a fighting machine. The army has proved its mettle at the Kargil war. Chinese PLA will have fight on its hand next time when it confronts the Indian army.

Would you believe even the fuddy duddies of China want to wreck their economy by waging war on India?
Scaria Varghese
Melbourne, Australia
Nov 09, 2009 04:55 AM
18
Here is a comparison betyween India and China from a recent article by david Rieff in the "International Herald Tribune":

"Today only 7 percent of Chinese children under age 5 are underweight, whereas the figure for India is 43 percent. Even in sub-Saharan Africa, which most people assume to have the direst poverty statistics, the average child-malnutrition rate is 28 percent."

There you have it......
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 09, 2009 04:38 AM
17
MURALIDHAR:

Indians like to cite democracy as an excuse for non-performance. In our dangerous world, this is suicidal.

No business firm can avoid bankruptcy by proclaiming that it is democratic, unlike its competitors. It has to be more competitive.

Frankly, what hope has India?
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 09, 2009 01:06 AM
16
Author

You forgot (conveniently??)to mention "Democratic freedom" as one of the parameters...in your "Plain Speaking facts".

So without considering this important metric the analysis is at least incomplete.

Indian public at large do have the superiority complex over china specific to this metric
Muralidhar
Omaha, USA
Nov 08, 2009 09:11 PM
15
VARUN, SCARIA:

I can't beieve you can't see the plain and simple point I am making.

This is not a matter of Democracy vesus Dictatorship.

It is about India's capacity to SURVIVE in a growing confrontation with China, given India's much weaker economic base and huge internal populations that are on the path of armed rebellion (today the vast tribal populations incited by the Naxalites, tomorrow the colossal Muslim population incited by Pakistan).

Can India withstand a Chinese attack, militarily, or China's incitement of rebellions in India? Can India's weak state and (comparatively) far weaker economy cope?

This is my point. Is it really so hard to understand?

To put the whole thing even more simply:

Imagine two men are involved in a boxing match for their survival. One man is a Good man. The other man is a Bad man.

You, Scaria and Varun, are urely not going to say: "The Good man will win because he is decent and his opponent is a bad fellow."

No, you will say: "Goodness has nothing to do with who will win. The man will win who is stronger and a better boxer."

Got it?

The Allies did not defeat Germany in World War Two because their cause was nobler, though it was. They defeated Germany because they succeeded in mustering greater PHYSICAL power.

India keeps using democracy as an excuse for non-performance in a dangerous world. It is a suicidal attitude.

No business firm can avoid bankruptcy by proclaiming that it has better values than its competitors. It has to perform better in the competition.

Truly, sometimes I despair.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 08, 2009 08:47 PM
14
Scaria Varghese: excellent post as always

well lets examine this most "Excellent Post"

"It is very a simplistic statistical comparison between China and India."

well actually no, its not simplistic. These statistics are known as key performance indicators and you can infer a lot about the quality of life. For example with electricity consumption at 3x times of India, the average Chinese man can live a vastly enriched life. Plus his or her lung are not polluted on a daily basis by smoky kerosene lamps or cooking fires.

"India has potential-a democracy saddled with jurisprudence and a comparatively young citizenry endowed with skills."

what makes you think the average citizenry is endowed with skills. The literacy rate is roughly 2/3rds and that covers basic literacy. One reason why China can move so fast in executing projects is due to a skilled workforce, not because its a totalitarian regime, you doofus.

"One of them is the one child policy that is a folly-more male than female population. This folly will have repercussions in the future-males won’t find adequate female partners"

you presumably have no idea of the gender ratios in India.

"Here the democracy has the advantage: the citizenry are the masters, who in turn can vote in or vote out a government as they please-the kind of release of exaltation or frustrations as the case may be. "

you think there is no political violence in India?? Most of it really comes from frustrations of lack of opportunity. Some of it comes from the immaturity of the political class: they can't sell change.

Some jobs are being fortunately created, otherwise politcal tensions in India would reach the Pakistani level.

I could go on, but the "tortoise and hare analogies2 have been batted around for decades.
MK Saini
Delhi, India
Nov 08, 2009 07:12 PM
13
Scaria Varghese: excellent post as always. Momeen: India can be more rightly and fairly compared with Nigeria, Mexico and Brazil because India more or less shares their values. India is not exactly like them, nor are comparisons to them non-problematic. Though all 3 have suffered dictatorship, they are on the democratic, pluralist path at present, and hence possess all the messiness and chaos that developing countries following that route have.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 08, 2009 04:09 PM
12
Scaria
"would you like to live in totalitarian China? "

far be it for me to point out, but you appear to have voted with your feet and now living in Australia. Emmigration is a point of pride with a lot of Indians.

Anyway, the main issue that Democracy is supposed to solve is that of succession. Now that the Indian political system is 75% hereditary, its hardly democratic. India survives becuase its a soft state, not becuase its democratic.
MK Saini
Delhi, India
Nov 08, 2009 04:01 PM
11
Another of Outlook India's articles which has a strong anti-national tinge to it. I dont get it how an Indian can write stuff like we are envious of our neighbors, and this is not the first article in Outlook with that government bashing or anti - tinge...Its a shame that this is how people choose to use freedom of press
Varun
Mumbai, India
Nov 08, 2009 12:16 PM
10
Sorry what lively democracy are we talikg about.Our MP's majority are uneducated illetrate -unemplyable thugs who are an embarrsement when presentd to the world.Lets not talk about a "lively"Democracy till crimainals and uneducated people are barred from standing in elections!
Kashi mallya
bangalore, india
Nov 08, 2009 12:14 PM
9
I really don't mind living in a communist country as long as it is clean, the citizens are getting value for the taxes they pay,the politicians are doing something for the country.
What judiciary do we boast of??Nothing gets done in our courts!
What freedom do we have when we don't even know if we will come back home alive!
Having been to China, let me not have a false sense of pride and say India is more livable!CHINA is definitely a country I will not mind living in if I have a chance as for India..sorry it has made progress in matters which do not effect the common man.
Kashi mallya
bangalore, india
Nov 08, 2009 11:46 AM
8
MOMEEN RASHID, would you like to live in totalitarian China? You are free to do so. Living in India you are taking it granted the democratic privileges you are enjoying. It is always greener on the other side; until you reach there
Scaria Varghese
Melbourne, Australia
Nov 08, 2009 10:14 AM
7
Indians have been living carelessly and (the leaders) lazily, for too long.

Now luck has run out, with the rise of China.

Too bad.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 08, 2009 10:11 AM
6
SCARIA:

Amen to your long sermon on democracy.

Unfortunately, in the struggle to survive between countries, being a democracy cannot save any country if they fail to achieve the power to survive.

The Britisdh defeated Nazi invasion in 1940 not because thgey were a democracy, but because the Royal Air Force had better planes and shd radar.

If India is so far behind in economic and industrial power, frankly, the game is up.

Faced with a growingly dangerous Pakistan, the Naxalites more and more armed with the best weapons by China and tying down large armed Indian forces, AND the Chinese superpower on its long border, with the huge and growing internal Muslim population (maybe 350 MILLION in twenty-five years), India has HAD it.

Bye bye India.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 08, 2009 07:30 AM
5
It is very a simplistic statistical comparison between China and India. China is a totalitarian state and anything can be done with the stroke of a pen. India is lively democracy where people have the mundane of democratic rights-freedom of speech, freedom of expression and so on.

In a democracy it is different. Democracy is a slow; especially in India’s case- a democracy of over a billion people in what is the most culturally, communally and ethnically diverse nation-state in the world. Democracy is also a tentative process of cumulative adjustments within a vast, organic system, whose complex interconnections remain impossible to define or accurately fathom. Unlike totalitarian system, a democratic system cannot be 'force marched' in a particular direction by railroading peoples’ democratic rights. To buttress my point: India’s first sealink in Mumbai took eight years to build, while China built two sea bridges nearly six times as long, connecting Shanghai with nearby hubs, in about half the time — in three to five years each.

Could we have it in any other way? Certainly not, in spite its faultlines and widespread grafting among politicos and the bureaucracy, democracy is preferable to other nasties-totalitarian and dictatorship. India’s strength is in her democratic credentials- guaranteeing freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of religion and so on. Indian democracy stands tall as a beacon and a mystifying threat to totalitarian China’s hegemonic ambitions. In the end, as akin to the proverbial tortoise, India will first reach her destination-the finishing point.

India has potential-a democracy saddled with jurisprudence and a comparatively young citizenry endowed with skills. On the contrary, China is a totalitarian state with umpteen problems. One of them is the one child policy that is a folly-more male than female population. This folly will have repercussions in the future-males won’t find adequate female partners. Chinese totalitarian regime survived despite the erstwhile Soviet Union and her satellite countries have collapsed.

Communism is modern anachronism that is unsuited to the modern market driven economy. This truism was well understood by the late paramount leader Deng Xiaoping of China and he began to modernise Chinese dilapidated economy. In the late 1970s China began to progress after ditching the moribund and outdated communist policies. The 1987 student uprising and the resultant Tiananmen Square massacre was a harbinger for change against authoritarian rule. The fuddy-duddies of the Chinese totalitarian regime headed the impending danger and luck was on their side-the country was on a breakneck development, which registered double digit economic growth consistently well over a decade. Restless young generation began to find jobs and being mesmerised by consumerism. Words like market economy, Capitalism and consumer sovereignty were anathema to the commissars once and they have wriggled their way into the communist lexicon. As part of liberalisation, moribund and outdated communist policies are ditched and embraced and encouraged owning of private property, entrepreneurship and so on. The big brother is still watching and freedom of all kinds is still dirty words. The question: how long can the totalitarian regime last?

Yearning to be free is inherent in all of us- human beings and animals. That can’t be suppressed in perpetuity; it will come back to bite the totalitarian regime sooner or later. The question: what form will that be? Will it be like the fate of the Romanian totalitarian dictator Nicolae Ceauaescu?

Here the democracy has the advantage: the citizenry are the masters, who in turn can vote in or vote out a government as they please-the kind of release of exaltation or frustrations as the case may be. Whereas, under the totalitarian rule, the anger and frustrations of the citizenry are bottled up and simmering- ready to burst. When it bursts like a volcano, there will be total destruction in its path. The totalitarian regime is on borrowed time for the judgement day. The writing is already on the wall: On Thursday, July 02, 2009 tens of thousands of people took to Hong Kong's streets for the annual pro-democracy march, as the city marked the 12th anniversary of its return to China. There was also record turnout of 150,000 at the candlelight vigil last month to mark the 20th anniversary of the bloody crackdown on protests in Beijing's Tiananmen Square.

Furthermore, the recent Xinjiang unrest where one of the biggest ethnic Uighurs minorities- mainly about 10 million Muslims-in China were in open rebellion against the Chinese rule is only the harbinger for what is in the offing for the totalitarian regime. The unrest led China's President Hu Jintao abandoning the G 8 meeting and making the beeline- returning to China
Scaria Varghese
Melbourne, Australia
Nov 08, 2009 12:38 AM
4
from the article

"Electricity production (bn kWh) 2,199.60 vs 667.80 "

the Chinese obviously have been following Lenin's insightful equation: Communism = Electricity Plus Soviet Power. Well they don't have soviet power, but they retained the electricity part of the equation.

Must be something our Indian commies / planners don't care for. Its like the chapters in a book you would rather gloss over.
MK Saini
Delhi, India
Nov 08, 2009 12:06 AM
3
@varun
"You won't find essays like "A post modernist critique of techno-managerial economics" whereas in India, that is old hat; such writings were probably found in the first few years of Indian independence itself."

true, but consider China imported communism and its consequent disasters. Both countries imported their intellectual ideas from the West. But China may be more confident now, having hit rock bottom under the Mao years.

But in India, the Indian intellectual class practice disassociation with their country to an extreme. Most of them could be classed as self hating. Most of them are curiously reactionary as well. Do they hate modernity? Do they hate electricity (not for themselves of course)??
MK Saini
Delhi, India
Nov 07, 2009 11:58 PM
2
Varun:

India is at Nigeria's level, not China's: only too true.

But Nigeria does not have a long border with China.

So, tough luck, India.

Does India care if it becomes another Nepal?
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 07, 2009 11:00 PM
1
Comparing India with China is the proverbial apples and oranges comparison. These are two different histories, philosophies and systems of government. One major reason China has that look of getting things done and 'can-do' is because they are an authoritarian state that brooks no opposition whatsoever. You won't find in China strikes, protests, processions, sit-ins, sit-outs, lock-ins, lock-outs, whining and complaining. Nor any developmental debates about whether China is in fact doing the right thing. You won't find essays like "A post modernist critique of techno-managerial economics" whereas in India, that is old hat; such writings were probably found in the first few years of Indian independence itself.
The Chinese people, by and large, appear to be fairly content with this state of affairs. And this where 'philosophy' and values come in. The Chinese value stability and growth over more abstract ideas like freedom, pluralism, democracy and openness, which India values. Where the authoritarianism really comes in is in those instances where there is any opposition or disagreement.Tiananmen and Tibet are examples.
Needless to say, none of the above differences is an excuse for the factors which do affect India adversely, such as corruption, bureaucracy and callousness. But India is more fairly and rightly compared with Brazil, Mexico and Nigeria, than with China.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
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