Paula Zahn, CNN Anchor: They are two best selling authors with two very different takes on terrorism. In hisbook,"9-11," Noam Chomsky accuses the United States of being aterrorist state. He says the war in Afghanistan is wrong,states that in recent history, America has committed acts ofterrorism, and maintains that America's foreign policy ishypocritical.
In Bill Bennett's "Why We Fight," he says the war on terroris morally just. He maintains that democracy and humanrights are America's noblest exports, and that we must beprepared to respond to anti-American critics. Talk about awar of words. Well, Bill Bennett joins us now from New York,and Noam Chomsky joins us from Boston. Welcome, gentlemen.Great to have both of you with us.
Bill Bennett, Author, "WHYWE FIGHT" (Amazon Rank 507) : Thank you.
Noam Chomsky, Author, "9-11"(Amazon Rank: 220): Hello.
Zahn: I would like to start off, professor, by reading avery small excerpt from your book where you write thatnothing can justify crimes such as those of September 11,but we can think of the United States as an innocent victimonly if we adopt the convenient path of ignoring the recordof its actions and those of its allies, which are, afterall, hardly a secret. What are you referring to here?
Chomsky: Well, for example, the United States happens to bethe only state in the world that has been condemned by theWorld Court for international terrorism, would have beencondemned by the Security Council, except that it vetoed theresolution. This referred to the U.S. terrorist war againstNicaragua, the court ordered the United States to desist andpay reparations. The U.S. responded by immediatelyescalating the crimes, including first official orders toattack what are called soft targets -- undefended civiliantargets. This is massive terrorism. It is by no means theworst, and it continues right to the present, so forexample...
Zahn: Bill Bennett, your response to what the professorsaid, and then we will let him pick up from there.
Bennett: It's quite extraordinary to hear a supposedlylearned person call the United States a leading terroristnation, one of the leading terrorist nations in the world.It's false and very treacherous teaching. In the situationMr. Chomsky is talking about, of course, the United Statessupported the Contras in Nicaragua. The condemnation orjudgment by the World Court was not that it was terrorism,but that we supported some unlawful activity. However, whenthere were free elections in Nicaragua, and Mrs. Chamorrotook office, all the lawsuits, all the complaints againstthe United States were dropped, when you had ademocratically elected country.
We have done more good for more people than any country inthe history of the world. What I want to know of Mr. Chomskyis if he believes we are a leading terrorist state, he isobviously welcome in the United States, why do you choose tolive, sir, in a terrorist nation?
Chomsky: First of all, the World Court condemned the UnitedStates for what it called "the unlawful use of force andviolation of treaties."
Bennett: Which is not terrorism.
Chomsky: That's international terrorism.
Bennett: No, it is not.
Chomsky: Yes, it is exactly international terrorism.
Bennett: No, it is not, sir.
Chomsky: Furthermore, the escalation to attack undefendedcivilian targets is just a classic illustration ofterrorism. And furthermore, it continues right to thepresent, as I was saying, so for example...
Bennett: It's quite...
Chomsky: May I continue?
Bennett: Sure.
CHOMSKY: In the late 1990s, some of the worst terroristatrocities in the world were what the Turkish governmentitself called state terror, namely massive atrocities, 80percent of the arms coming from the United States, millionsof refugees, tens of thousands of people killed, hideousrepression, that's international terror, and we can go onand on.
(CROSSTALK)
Zahn: Before you go further, let's give Bill a chance torespond to respond to the Turkish string (ph) of this -- goahead, Bill.
Bennett: America responsible for hideous repression andrefugees? Why is it, Mr. Chomsky, whenever there arerefugees in the world, they flee to the United States ratherthan from the United States? Why is it on balance, Mr.Chomsky, that this nation, when it opens its gates, haspeople rushing in? Why is it that it is this nation theworld looks to for support and encouragement and help? Werebuilt Europe twice in this century, after two world wars.We liberated Europe from Nazi tyranny. We have liberatedEastern Europe in the last few years from communist tyranny,and now we are engaged in a battle against something else.
When we went in to Kabul, even the "New York Times" in mid-November showed pictures of people smiling at the presenceof American troops, because this country was once again aforce for freedom, and a force for liberation. Have we donesome terrible things in our history? Of course we have. Butas Senator Moynihan has pointed out, our people find outabout them from reading the newspapers and watchingtelevision. When you look at this nation on balance, interms of what good it has done and what bad it has done, itis grossly irresponsible to talk about this country as aterrorist nation, and to suggest, as do you in your book,that there is justification, moral justification, for whathappened on 9/11. For that, sir, you really should beashamed.
Chomsky: You should be ashamed for lying about what is inthe book, because nothing is said -- in fact, the quote wasjust given, nothing can justify the terrorist attacks ofSeptember 11. You just heard the quote, if you want tofalsify it, that's your business.
Bennett: No -- well, I...
Chomsky: Just a minute -- did I interrupt you? Did Iinterrupt you?
Zahn: Professor, let me jump in here, but implicit in that-- aren't you saying that you understand why America wastargeted?
Chomsky: Do I understand? Yes, so does the U.S. intelligenceservices, so does all of scholarship. I mean, we can ignoreit if we like, and therefore lead to further terroristattacks, or we can try to understand. What Mr. Bennett saidis about half true. The United States has done some verygood things in the world, and that does not change the factthat the World Court was quite correct in condemning theUnited States as an international terrorist state, nor dothe atrocities in Turkey in the last few years -- they arenot obviated by the fact that there are other good thingsthat happen. Sure. That's -- you are correct when you saygood things have happened, but if we are not totalhypocrites, in the sense of the gospels, we will payattention to our own crimes. For one reason, because that'selementary morality -- elementary morality. For anotherthing, because we mitigate them.
Zahn: All right, professor, I'm going to have to leave itthere with you, Bill Bennett, and we have got to leave it toabout 20 seconds.
Bennett: It there any nation that acknowledges its errorsand its sins and its crimes and the things it has done thatare not consistent with its principles more than the UnitedStates? No, there is not.
This is also the man, just let it be said for the record,who said that the reports of atrocities by the Khmer Rougewere grossly exaggerated. This is the man who said when weengaged the Soviet Union that we...
Chomsky: No, it's not. But that is...
Bennett: I didn't interrupt you -- that we were continuingthe Nazi effort against Russia. Go through the Chomsky work,line by line, argument by argument, and you will see this isa man who has made a career out of hating America and out oftrashing the record of this country. Of course, there is amixed record in this country, why do you choose to live inthis terrorist nation, Mr. Chomsky?
CHOMSKY: I don't. I choose to live in what I think is thegreatest country in the world, which is committinghorrendous terrorist acts and should stop.
Bennett: I think you should say greatest -- I think youshould say greatest a little more often.
Chomsky: If you want to be a hypocrite...
(CROSSTALK)
Bennett: I think you should acknowledge its virtues a littlemore often, Mr. Chomsky.
Chomsky: And you should acknowledge its crimes.
Bennett: I do. Read my book. You will see it.
Chomsky: No, you never do. No, sorry. And if you want to...
Bennett: I am reading other people's books.
Chomsky: If you want to know what I say, do not listen toMr. Bennett's falsifications of which I just gave anexample.
Bennett: Read both books.
Zahn: Gentlemen, we are going to have to cut off both of youthere. Noam Chomsky, Bill Bennett, thank you for both ofyour thoughts, and I think probably the best course ofaction anybody can take out there, is buy both of your booksso they can make their own judgment.
BENNETT: That's fine.
Zahn: Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time.
Chomsky: Yes.
