'Absolute Baseless Accusation'

Tom Mintier: General Musharraf, the world is holding its breath right now. Should they be?

General Musharraf: Yes, the situation is dangerous. But one needs to de-escalate and reduce this tension.

Tom Mintier: You've been calling for de-escalation and reduction of tensions, but nothing seems to happen. In a couple ofdays, you'll be in Kazakhstan, where Russian President [Vladimir] Putin has attempted to put together aface-to-face meeting with you and [Indian] Prime Minister [Atal Behari] Vajpayee. Will the two of you meet?

General Musharraf: It depends more on Prime Minister Vajpayee. I have no problem in meeting him, and I've been saying that allalong. So this question needs to be put to him.

Tom Mintier: You said it's a dangerous situation. But should the world be worried about a nuclear conflict between yourtwo countries

General Musharraf: I would say no. I don't think either side is that irresponsible to go to that limit. I would even go to theextent of saying one shouldn't even be discussing these things, because any sane individual cannot even thinkof going into this unconventional mode, whatever the pressures.

Tom Mintier: India has a no-first-use policy. Pakistan does not. Why not?

General Musharraf: We have called for much bigger than that, a bigger policy than that. We've called for a no-war pact, thatthere shouldn't be any war. We have called for de-nuclearization of South Asia. So -- we've called forreduction of forces. So what we are saying is much higher and much bigger than what India is proposing.

Tom Mintier: There have been accusations that you have moved your nuclear assets into front-line positions. There havebeen accusations that India has re-outfitted their ballistic missiles with conventional warheads and thatthere could be confusion if there is a launch. What precautions have you taken, and have you changed thestatus of your nuclear weapons?

General Musharraf: No, not at all. Now, let's -- as I said, I would not even like to discuss the nuclear issue, because it'svery irresponsible of any leader to act -- to even discuss, rather than acting. Now, it's absolutely baseless,absolute baseless accusation that Pakistan ever moved any nuclear assets at any time, or deployed its missilesat any time. This is absolutely baseless. And that holds good even now.

Now, if at all, Indians have moved missiles. This is extremely dangerous, and this is a very seriousescalation, extremely serious escalation which the world needs to take note of, because this is -- you can'tdifferentiate between what is conventional and what is unconventional, coming from a missile. I mean, we don'tknow -- one doesn't know what it is carrying. So let's hope that good sense prevails and this does not lead toescalation. It has not because of the restraint that we are -- we are restraining ourselves.

So let India not test our patience and restraint. It will be very dangerous.

Tom Mintier: The issue that seems to be in contention is infiltration across the Line of Control in Kashmir, thatfollowing your speech on January 12, you said that there is no cross-border export of terrorism from Pakistan.Can you still say that today?

General Musharraf: Yes, indeed. I can say that with full conviction today.

Tom Mintier: Have you changed your orders at all to those along the Line of Control to be more vigilant, to be morecareful, to prevent from what you're saying being countermanded on the ground?

General Musharraf: Well, the orders were there immediately after my January 12 speech, all instructions, all orders were givenin -- for compliance of whatever I said on the 12th of January. Now the situation has worsened, certainly,because of certain actions since then. And one has assured -- I have assured that there is nothing happeningon the Line of Control.

And we need to be more vigilant, yes.

Tom Mintier: British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw came through here and said you need to do more. George W. Bush came outand this week and said you need to show you're doing more. In your mind, what more can you do?

General Musharraf: Yes, I know that they've said this. I know that the international concern is on cross-border terrorism, andthe international concern is to defuse the situation arising out of this confrontation between India andPakistan.

Now I certainly have given a commitment. I've given a commitment that nothing is happening across the Lineof Control. And I've also said that we will not allow Pakistan territory to be used for any purposes ofterrorism across its borders against any country.

Now we stand by it, I stand by this. But my disappointment that I would like to also express is, what morehas to be done? I think the amount or the decision that I've taken, and the amount that we have done, startingfrom the time that operation has been going on in Afghanistan against al Qaeda, the amount of actions thatwe've taken against al Qaeda in Pakistan, within Pakistan, on the borders, on the western borders, is thingsthat could not have been done by anyone.

Even internally, when we moved against a number of extremist organizations, I don't think any government,any leader in Pakistan, could have even imagined to handle such a situation.

So I personally feel that I've taken actions which couldn't have been imagined before.

Tom Mintier: There is a perception in some corners that those 2,000 or so people that you arrested leading up to andfollowing your speech on January 12, that you let them all go.

General Musharraf: But this is absolutely baseless, absolutely baseless. Let me give a short explanation of this. Pakistan andI, my government, want to root out militancy from our internal environment. We will do anything toward rootingout this militancy, and we are doing that.

Now, that is why we banned parties which couldn't even be touched. The previous governments used to behobnobbing with these very leaders, with these very parties. I have banned them. I have sealed their offices.I have frozen their accounts. And there are hundreds of their members behind bars now.

Now, I -- having said that, coming to your question, we did -- whenever there's a crackdown, we take in alot of people. And then we start interrogating and investigating. Whoever is declared white is let go. Andthis is happening exactly with the al Qaeda, even. The number of people that get arrested are far more thanthose who are retained, because anyone declared white is left.

After all, you haven't given life imprisonment to anyone that you've taken. You move against them, you havea crackdown, and then you analyze, who are the people who you grade black, and who are those who are in thegray area, who need further investigation, and the whites are -- those who are declared white are left.

Now, to say that all of them are -- there are hundreds of their members still behind bars. And so this isabsolutely baseless.

Tom Mintier: Speaking of who they are, there have been accusations that maybe a third hand might be at work here, that alQaeda, Taliban, may have regrouped in Kashmir and may try to start a conflict between Pakistan and India. Isthat a concern?

General Musharraf: To an extent, yes, to an extent, yes, it is. But one has to understand the dynamics of all that is happening.There is militancy in the west, there is militancy in the east, now, and it has fallout here on -- insidePakistan, internally.

So therefore, certainly al Qaeda has its effect, and the freedom struggle in Kashmir has its own fallout,has its own effects. So therefore certainly with over a decade of this militancy going on -- in fact, twodecades, if you include when we started at the -- during the cold war period of fighting in Afghanistan -- twodecades of military action has its fallout.

And there are independent-minded people who are operating maybe independently.

So therefore, one cannot blame or cast aspersions on Pakistan, on my and my government, on whatever happensaround. This is absolutely...

Tom Mintier: But they do.

General Musharraf: Yes, that is unfortunate.

Tom Mintier: They still are.

General Musharraf: That is unfortunate, and that must be understood by everyone, especially the leadership in the United States,that we will move according to the promises made.

But if that means that nothing will be happening around, I mean, we are a victim of terrorism ourselves.What happened here, what is happening here, we are a victim ourselves. So who's doing that?

So one must understand, there is a fallout of whatever is happening, and we must be bold enough to facethis fallout and understand that it is not government sponsored. It doesn't have the backing of Pakistangovernment. So that must be understood.

So the differentiation has to be made between what I am doing and the government is doing, and what anyindividual person or group or organization may do on their own.

So this differentiation has to be made. And there has to be some trust placed that we are againstmilitancy. We will fight militancy in any form.

So this is the assurance that I am giving. Now let us understand the nuances of this. Let us understand thedynamics of this within our own region, and then see and observe what we are doing, what myself and mygovernment is doing.

Tom Mintier: How can you prove to the world that your government, your military, doesn't allow this to take place? Thereare U.N. observers along the Line of Control, but probably not enough to ensure that this doesn't take place.The terrain in that part of the country is extremely rugged, extremely difficult to control, extremelydifficult to patrol.

General Musharraf: I mean, first of all, my word has to be taken. Secondly, I know that the United States, Britain, all theleaders that I've spoken to, say that they have independent ways of checking and knowing what is happening onthe Line of Control. So if they have that, and they are very confident, they will know. They have to beknowing what is happening on the Line of Control.

Tom Mintier: Don't they provide you the intelligence?

General Musharraf: Yes, they do. They do. We have a good interaction with the intelligence of the United States, so we -- we'vesaid that there's nothing happening. Let us see what they say now. And as far as physically giving a guaranteethat this rugged terrain, in this rugged terrain nobody at all will move across, is expecting too much,because that has not been possible by the Indian army, to seal the borders. We are for monitoring the Line ofControl. Any assistance of this, any increase in the force of United Nations, we welcome that. Let's beef themup. Let's survey on the Line of Control more effectively.

Tom Mintier: Let's talk about troop movements. There are reports that Pakistani units are moving away from the Afghanborder and being redeployed along the Indian border, along the Line of Control. Why did you do this?

General Musharraf: Well, we haven't moved the entire troops. We have moved elements. But let me first of all say that thewestern border, the seeding of the western border even now, wherever the passes have to be sealed, iscomplete, even now.

But we were moving -- we had moved certain larger elements into the western border, out of them a part hasbeen moved, and we are watching the situation on the east. Obviously, I said that the security of Pakistan ismuch dearer to us. We haven't moved the entire force. There's no change on the western border. In effect --the effects are not -- there is no change.

But if the situation worsens in the east, yes, we have plans to move more from the western border.

Tom Mintier: You talked about terrorism, you talked about security. What about your personal security? It's no secret inthis town that there are several motorcades that go around that the president's not riding in. Have there beenthreats by terrorist groups against your life?

General Musharraf: Well, this is -- yes, there have been. There have been threats from all directions. When we -- what I said,the bold actions that we've taken, which unfortunately are not being gauged when somebody says that we haven'tmoved enough, we have stepped on the toes of a lot of people, a lot of extremists also.

So a lot of people may be having reasons to take action against me. So therefore, certain securityarrangements are being taken.

Tom Mintier: Are you afraid?

General Musharraf: No, I'm a soldier, frankly, I believe in destiny, and I'm not afraid.

Tom Mintier: Let's talk about dialogue. You have been calling for months for dialogue with Mr. Vajpayee. You had anopportunity in Agra [summit meeting in July 2001]. It didn't work out. What's it going to take to get itrestarted?

General Musharraf: Again, I would say this question has to be asked from Mr. Vajpayee. The issue is very clear. We -- the worldis firstly concerned on deescalation, and we go along with that, we must deescalate and reduce tension.

The world is concerned about cross-border terrorism, and I've given a statement, nothing is happeningacross Line of Control.

Now, it should not end there. There has to be some movement forward. And the movement forward is certainlythe issue of addressing -- initiating the process of dialogue and squarely addressing the dispute of Kashmir,the Kashmir dispute.

After all, there is a United Nations Security Council resolution which must be adhered. And I would requestall world leaders, the United States leaders, the people of the United States, to understand that this -- thestand that the Kashmiris have taken, the freedom struggle there, it is a genuine freedom struggle going on,and their demand for the -- on the implementation of the United Nations Security Council is extremely genuine.

And they must be heard in that direction. We expect the world to help the Kashmiris to get their right ofself-determination as promised to them by the United Nations Security Council resolution.

So why we are moving to address the immediate problems of escalation and this region being engulfed in war,we must think of the long-term strategy of how to resolve this dispute permanently. This is...

Tom Mintier: You call them freedom fighters, but some people call them terrorists. I mean, there's been a lot made of thatdifferentiation. You say that you don't supply financial aid, organization, military assistance, that it'ssimply moral and diplomatic support.

General Musharraf: Yes.

Tom Mintier: What is that moral and diplomatic support?

General Musharraf: Well, we -- right since partition, right since the time that this United Nations Security Council resolutionwas passed, we have been giving, assuring Kashmiris of all our support, because we must understand there areKashmiris here. There are Kashmiris all over Pakistan. And there are Kashmiris all around the world. They allgive their moral support, diplomatic, political support to whatever is happening in Kashmir.

Now, when this Kashmir struggle started in 1989, it was -- it's totally indigenous. It started because thepeople of Kashmir, of the Indian-occupied Kashmir, rose against Indian -- Indians. And they came out in thestreets. It was a political struggle.

But when there was a clampdown on them, and when the army moved in, and with -- started its atrocities,this political movement convert -- got converted into a military struggle. And this is how it got initiated.And that is how it is going on.

Tom Mintier: The Indian government's talking about elections in Kashmir again.

General Musharraf: Yes, they are. I wonder whether the people of Kashmir want the elections.

Tom Mintier: Do you think they'll happen?

General Musharraf: I can't say, I can't say. But one thing I'm very sure of, the people of Kashmir don't want the election. AndI know that the blame is, again, said from Pakistan, that it is we who forced them not to go on election.

No country from outside can force a people, where there are 700,000 Indian occupation troops, not to go forpolls. It is their own desire that they don't want to go for polls. How can we sitting here force them not todo that?

It is actually the Indian forces who undertake such atrocities, force them to go for the vote. That is whathappened last time. They were forced to go and vote. And yet the turnout was extremely dismal.

Now again they are saying, there's -- I know that there's a lot of thinking that Pakistan forces them notto go to. We don't have to do anything, because I know that the Kashmiris don't want to go to pollsthemselves.

So let the -- if at all the elections are held, let the world see itself what happens there.

Tom Mintier: This past week, you had British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw here, saying that the issue of Kashmir is abilateral dispute, must be settled between India and Pakistan. You have the U.S. secretary of defense coming,Donald Rumsfeld.